Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology/Archive 2024
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Copyright Status for Scottish Coats of Arms
I am trying to determine the true copyright status for the coats of arms of Scottish Council Areas. I am asking this, as I have had some bother adding the East Ayrshire coat of arms to the Subdivisions of Scotland page. A bot keeps removing it.
i was always under the impression that these things are public domain, as they are surely very old. So, could you figure this out for me? Thank you. More information can be found at: this link. Pablothepenguin (talk) 18:20, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- As was said on the media copyright board, a Coat of Arms is defined by a blazon (a text formal description), with any emblazonment (specific drawing) that follows that description considered "correct". Per Commons:Coats of arms, A blazon is public domain but each rendition has its own copyright. East Ayrshire's coat of arms where granted in 1996[1] so no rendition is old enough to automatically fall in the public domain. Specify, the rendition your trying to add (File:East Ayrshire arms.jpg) seem to have been created by the council themselves,[2] and is likely copyrighted by them.
- The good news is that anybody can create there own version and release it under a free licence, and then it can be used anywhere on Wikipedia, which is what is already the case with all the arms on the "Subdivisions of Scotland" page.[a] A good place to ask for such a file to be created is at WP:GLI. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 21:26, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Notes
- ^ For example, File:Coat of Arms of the Edinburgh City Council.svg was created by User:Euryrel, File:Glasgow Coat of Arms 1996.svg by User:TilmannR, and even the Royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom as used on Wikipedia is user created (by the great User:Sodacan)
References
- ^ "East Ayrshire". Hearldry of the world.
- ^ "East Ayrshire Coat of Arms". east-ayrshire.gov.uk.
- @Pablothepenguin: To piggy-back on this, many coats of arms displayed on Wikipedia are SVG files that conform to the blazons and are uploaded to Commons. (See File:Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom (Scotland).svg for an example.) I specifically linked that file because it contains the warning that regardless of the copyright status of the particular emblazonment, all Scottish coats of arms are subject to the legal authority of Lord Lyon King of Arms. An SVG rendering of the arms for limited use in Subdivisions of Scotland, East Ayrshire and East Ayrshire Council should not run afoul of the various Lyon King of Arms Acts. I have added rationale to that image for use on the Subdivisions page and also added the image. However, SVGs are preferred as the creators release them to Commons for more general use. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 23:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Jkudlick: The problem with just adding a rationale for that use is that the use in question needs to comply with all ten non-free content use criteria, and not just WP:NFCC#10c. In other words, the file's use needs to comply with Wikipedia's non-free content use policy regardless of whether it meets the Lyon King of Arms Act and Wikpedia's policy is quite restrictive. Non-free images used to simply illustrate individual entries in tables, embedded lists or stand-alone list articles has pretty much never been allowed because such use is always considered WP:DECORATIVE per WP:NFC#CS, WP:NFLISTS and WP:NFTABLES, and there's almost always the possible of creating a free alternative to non-free use either by Wikilink, text or a freely licensed/public domain image per WP:FREER. This was sort of touched on at WP:MCQ#East Ayrshire council coat of arms on Subdivisions of Scotland article and I don't think an exception to this can be argue in this case since the file is basically be used as nothing more than an icon in a table listing just the names of the subdivisions or other basic information. For reference, removing the entire COA column is not really going to affect the encyclopedic understanding the section, but the other COA images in the table aren't non-free files and thus aren't subject to Wikipedia's non-free content use policy. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:33, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Marchjuly: Oh, duh... I've been around plenty long enough that I should have known that. Is this WP:TROUT-worthy, or just a WP:MINNOW level offense? (My talk page is over there.)
- @Pablothepenguin: It seems the only way to include the arms in Subdivisions of Scotland is for an SVG file to be created and uploaded to Commons. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 01:57, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Jkudlick: The problem with just adding a rationale for that use is that the use in question needs to comply with all ten non-free content use criteria, and not just WP:NFCC#10c. In other words, the file's use needs to comply with Wikipedia's non-free content use policy regardless of whether it meets the Lyon King of Arms Act and Wikpedia's policy is quite restrictive. Non-free images used to simply illustrate individual entries in tables, embedded lists or stand-alone list articles has pretty much never been allowed because such use is always considered WP:DECORATIVE per WP:NFC#CS, WP:NFLISTS and WP:NFTABLES, and there's almost always the possible of creating a free alternative to non-free use either by Wikilink, text or a freely licensed/public domain image per WP:FREER. This was sort of touched on at WP:MCQ#East Ayrshire council coat of arms on Subdivisions of Scotland article and I don't think an exception to this can be argue in this case since the file is basically be used as nothing more than an icon in a table listing just the names of the subdivisions or other basic information. For reference, removing the entire COA column is not really going to affect the encyclopedic understanding the section, but the other COA images in the table aren't non-free files and thus aren't subject to Wikipedia's non-free content use policy. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:33, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Pablothepenguin: To piggy-back on this, many coats of arms displayed on Wikipedia are SVG files that conform to the blazons and are uploaded to Commons. (See File:Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom (Scotland).svg for an example.) I specifically linked that file because it contains the warning that regardless of the copyright status of the particular emblazonment, all Scottish coats of arms are subject to the legal authority of Lord Lyon King of Arms. An SVG rendering of the arms for limited use in Subdivisions of Scotland, East Ayrshire and East Ayrshire Council should not run afoul of the various Lyon King of Arms Acts. I have added rationale to that image for use on the Subdivisions page and also added the image. However, SVGs are preferred as the creators release them to Commons for more general use. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 23:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
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