Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Archive 50

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Wild card standings on MLB season pages

User:Spesh531 has recently added the wild card standings to the MLB season pages (for example, [1]). My assumption was that this had not been done historically as the information was already available from the division standings tables, albeit not in readily sorted order. What does everyone think? isaacl (talk) 20:03, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

What the division standing tables don't show, is the Wild Card games back. It would be one thing if WCGB were in the division standing tables, but since they aren't, the WC table provides information that is pertinent to understand why a team (4), (5), or (6) is that seed. It's simple enough to infer if you look at win percentage, but there are cases like in 2021, where to the uninformed, there can be confusion as to why the 106-win Dodgers are seed 4, while the 95-win Brewers are seed 2. I can stop at 2012 for now (especially because the wild card tables for 1995–2011 need to be created—currently working on 2011—regardless of whether they stay on the season pages) until we come to an agreement, so extra work isn't made in case the decision to remove them occurs. Spesh531(talk, contrib., ext.) 20:15, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
The practice has been to only show wild card standings during the last month of an ongoing season. After that, we delete them & stick with the division standings. GoodDay (talk) 20:26, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
The wild card tables don't contain the tiebreaker information, so they aren't enough to clarify. I think a more compact solution would be to add a note to the standings explaining any tiebreakers that had to be used. A brief explanation of the wild card with a link to Major League Baseball Wild Card might also be helpful. My assumption was that prior to 2012, with there only being one wild card, editors felt that showing the division races was sufficient. I know the full set of division standings aren't shown on the team season pages, but I think there's limited utility in putting wild card standings info on the team pages years after the fact. isaacl (talk) 20:30, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
Personally that logic of 1 WC team vs 2 WC team making a difference doesn't make much sense to me. The template doesn't add bloat and doesn't take much space. Spesh531(talk, contrib., ext.) 05:19, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Two tables, with a combined 15 rows of teams and two heading rows, take up considerable vertical space. isaacl (talk) 05:33, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

I've deleted the additions-in-question. Spesh531, it would save time for all, if you'd bring your proposals to this WikiProject & seek a consensus for them. Rather than boldly adding them to MLB season pages. GoodDay (talk) 20:41, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I've also deleted the additions of Wild Card standings in all the 2011 MLB team season pages. Again Spesh531, seek consensus at this WikiProject for your proposed additions, first. GoodDay (talk) 21:11, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Why wouldn't the Wild Card standing be on the 2011 team pages when they are for 2012 to 2023? I figured WP:BOLD in this context would make sense and wouldn't cause any harm, regardless of whether there's one or two wild card teams. I had previously assumed that pre-2012 wasn't there simply because the template had not been created (the same way NFL Conference templates pre-2005 are missing conference standings, as they have not been created). Spesh531(talk, contrib., ext.) 05:19, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
They are? Oh, I'll undo the reverts. GoodDay (talk) 05:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
The tables predate the template by a year. isaacl (talk) 05:35, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
WP:BOLD is a policy, and people are free to revert for good reason. It's simply unconstuctive and the antithesis of BOLD for anyone to suggest that advance consensus is required. —Bagumba (talk) 05:41, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
I've undone the reverts on the 2011 MLB team seasons. GoodDay (talk) 05:45, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

It's that time of year again

In what should probably be an annual organized effort around the start of the season, the various redirects to each team's minor league players list need checked to make sure that all redirects point to the correct place after any trades or free agency transactions. Sometimes alternate forms of a players name still point to the minor league players list after the player makes the majors and those redirects will need retargeted to the player's individual article. Some redirects will also need pruned if the player is out of baseball and did not leave enough of a mark anywhere for an appropriate redirect target. Starting with the AL West and the Mariners, I've sent one redirect to RFD where the player has not been in the Mariners system since 2016 and has nothing on B-Ref since 2018, and I've retargeted another to the White Sox page (player had been traded). I think this would be best done as an organized process. Hog Farm Talk 02:55, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I do that from time to time when I go through those pages.. sometimes I've had issues at RFD where people don't understand the point of the minor league player pages. Spanneraol (talk) 03:18, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
It's a good idea to go through them. Special:WhatLinksHere, enter the page name, click "Hide transclusions" and "Hide links" and you get the list. Like so. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:24, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Sweet Spot (sports)

Given the particular importance of hitting a baseball in the "sweet spot", I wanted to bring to your attention the following AfD -> Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sweet spot (sports). If anyone knows anything on the subject, your improvements or perspective on the article would be greatly appreciated. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 06:18, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

UL Washington's autograph

You are invited to establish consensus at Talk:U. L. Washington#Autograph about inclusion of information about his signature's style. —Bagumba (talk) 04:55, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Potential Major League Baseball expansion moved to Expansion of Major League Baseball

Last month, the article "Potential Major League Baseball expansion" was moved to Expansion of Major League Baseball. Feedback is welcome at Talk:Expansion of Major League Baseball#Progression of MLB expansion. isaacl (talk) 21:53, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Coaching stints in infobox

I see that @Yankees10: removed a couple of players' coaching stints from Dave Parker and Dante Bichette, saying "random coaching stints don't go in the infobox", and I have a couple of questions. First, what makes a coaching stint "random"? It would seem to me that batting coaches (both) and 1st/3rd base coaches (Parker) are fairly prominent roles and not "random". Second, I am looking for the guidelines or discussion that supports these removals. The most significant discussion I can find is from 2010 and there's no consensus there anyway, so unless there's a newer thread I can't find it would seem a new discussion is warranted. Echoedmyron (talk) 15:35, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

I remember that previous discussion, and the rough consensus back then was to include it for current coaches and people with long histories of coaching.. not so much for people that just coached for a season or two. Was this really 14 years ago? I've spent way too many years here.. lol Spanneraol (talk) 18:33, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
  • I think it's time we have a full-blown project consensus on this. What I mean by "random" is pretty much what Spanneraol is saying. Long time coaches or ones that are very well known for being coaches (Dave Duncan, Mike Maddux, Mel Stottlemyre). Not random stints like Bichette's that just make the infobox unnecessarily larger.-- Yankees10 18:44, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

My rule of thumb is that infoboxes should contain key characteristics of a subject that are essential for a concise overview. Historically, many coaching jobs were sinecures, and in those cases, are arguably not an essential part of a concise overview (though that argument could be counterbalanced by a lengthy coaching career). Today, coaching roles are a lot more specialized and performance-oriented. Thus I think the nature of the coaching role for a given subject, taking into consideration the increasing amount of responsibility and accountability that have been placed on the coaching staff, should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. isaacl (talk) 02:39, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

One idea would be to align it with MOS:ROLEBIO:

Incidental and non-noteworthy roles (i.e. activities that are not integral to the person's notability) should usually not be mentioned in the lead paragraph.

—Bagumba (talk) 05:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

So far, the suggestions above are somewhat subjective. We have stringent criteria for what awards go in the infobox detailed at WP:BASESTYLEPL, I would think it is possible to come up with something more precise than whether or not a coaching tenure is "random" or "not integral" to their notability, or on a case-by-case basis. (and it should probably get updated at WP:BASESTYLEPL, or else Template:Infobox baseball biography. Echoedmyron (talk) 00:18, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't think something like a hard number of seasons would be useful, though. Even a table of numbers based on era would be subjectively chosen, and I don't think it would end the discussion, as it would always be subject to case-by-case investigation to determine if an exception should be made, unless there was consensus for something like "after year X, always include the coaching info". I'm not sure if there is support for this, though. If you have a proposal in mind, perhaps you can take a random sampling of players barely meeting and barely missing the criteria, and see if the results seem reasonable. (Yes, as the one who wrote the style guidance, I'm aware of the desirability of keeping it up to date.) isaacl (talk) 01:54, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
How many players are we talking about? Less than 100? Or more? Rgrds. --BX (talk) 05:24, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps we start with the major traditional roles, like 1B, 3B, pitching, and hitting coach. Is a one-time stint in these roles worthy of mention in the infobox? If not, what are some other factors?—Bagumba (talk) 05:37, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I was just thinking along these same lines, and came here to suggest this, thanks for beating me to it. The only role I might consider adding to these four might be bench coach, a role that has become more prominent in recent years. But yes, rather than trying to use the years of one's service as the brightline for inclusion - when after all we don't require minimum years as a player for inclusion - an easier to follow brightline for new and experienced editors alike would be the roles. Newer or less common roles like "offensive coordinator" or instructors at spring training would be easy enough to keep out. Echoedmyron (talk) 10:59, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
The on-paper responsibilities for pitching and hitting coach have been relatively clear over the years, even if they may have been staffed as favours in the past. Historically, first-base and third-base coaches were more likely to have been essentially player pension sources. Today, coaches will have other identified roles beyond the in-game position. I wouldn't support making this a brightline rule where only these five coaching roles are listed in player infoboxes. Newer roles are in practice more likely to have specific responsibilities and tasks, making them have greater importance to the team than the older, undefined roles. isaacl (talk) 15:06, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
To be clear, I wrote "Perhaps we start with..." as in start the discussion with. It was not meant to be an exclusive list.—Bagumba (talk) 15:37, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Steve Hosey

Hi. Can anyone in this project help clean up Steve Hosey and added sources? DaHuzyBru (talk) 03:04, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Ryan Searle#Requested move 1 March 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Ryan Searle#Requested move 1 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. – Hilst [talk] 13:00, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Recent maps added to MLB season articles

In January & February, maps have been added to MLB season pages. I've deleted the maps from the 1997 MLB season page to the 2024 MLB season page, as they were too large & thus intrusive to the text. PS - Was there a consensus reached somewhere to adds these maps, that I missed? GoodDay (talk) 07:17, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

How about if the map is smaller or placed in a different location on the articles or put on another type of MLB article? Seems a bit repetitve to add this pic to each season article
between 2000-present since there have been no team expansions or removals. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 00:13, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
If no objections. I'll delete them from the rest of the MLB season pages. GoodDay (talk) 00:30, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
I am for deleting from seasons page but let's add map of expansions to Expansion of Major League Baseball and find a way to shrink image size if possible. Agree? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 01:49, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Agree. GoodDay (talk) 02:28, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Oh no, all my work! Lol. All kidding aside, the reason I added maps to (most) of the season pages (hadn't finished 1901 through 1911 just yet) was because NFL and MLS season pages have maps for every season. I was simply taking that idea and applying it to MLB. I also had plans to do these maps for the 1920 through 1948 Negro Major Leagues for the 1920 through 1948 "year in baseball" pages. Since many of the MLB season articles had standings right below the header, the standings template and map templates couldn't co-exist at the same horizontal area. I personally think it's useful information when looking season to season, but if the majority disagree then so be it. Perhaps if the articles were slightly rearranged, there wouldn't be this obnoxious gap where the maps are. Spesh531(talk, contrib., ext.) 15:14, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
@Spesh531, Thank you for the contributions. Your logic made sense but unfortunately the horizontal clutter was an issue. Consensus can always change. If it is any consolation prize, maps have been moved to Expansion of Major League Baseball, 1961 Major League Baseball expansion, 1962 Major League Baseball expansion, 1969 Major League Baseball expansion, 1977 Major League Baseball expansion, 1993 Major League Baseball expansion, and 1998 Major League Baseball expansion. Also, all your maps can be pulled from any time in the future. Again, thank you for your contributions. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 21:01, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
@GoodDay, the question is whether the NFL season and MLS season formats were the right way to go, and if so, should they be applied to the MLB with some proper tweaking? @Spesh531, if you show the slight rearrangement you have in mind, perhaps the people will be receptive to it. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 21:07, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
I see no value in having any such maps in any sports season pages. GoodDay (talk) 21:08, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
I think they could be valuable for MLB/NFL seasons in the past since teams moved around quite a bit. Nemov (talk) 21:12, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
So I have been playing around with the 2019 season page. I added a spring training section, but this doesn't help with a wide view (regardless, this section should probably be in each season page going forwards). In standard view, it does enough. However, this doesn't work, for example, in the 2000 page (which already has a large empty gap, due to there being no schedule section). I was looking at other older MLB season pages, such as 1989, and it appears the "Awards and honors" section (which is already above the standings section) would be one solution to not creating a large empty space, as the templates from this section can co-exist on the same horizontal as the maps. However, with a page like 1948, with the only non-template content being the header and a much smaller Awards and honors section, there would be a somewhat awkward white space regardless. It seems we are WP:BRD about this, so I don't want to make any bold changes until anything is agreed upon. Spesh531(talk, contrib., ext.) 17:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
If you want to show in a sandbox what it could look like, and you think it could work, feel free to share that way. Otherwise, sounds like the images might not fit like NFL/MLS articles? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 02:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
For all seasons pre-1969, when there were no divisions, maps could fit side-by-side with the standings, as such. It's a bit more awkward once divisions are considered, as seen here. These are setup using the column formatting templates, setting the standings to the left, and maps to the right. My thinking is that this would only be done on the pages that do not have enough content to avoid awkward spacing. For example, the 2019 page has enough content, where the template can be inserted immediately below the infobox, seen here. I guess the only concern is that now, the standings are no longer side-by-side, except for the pages where the maps are placed below the infobox, as opposed to in a column formatting with the standings. Spesh531(talk, contrib., ext.) 14:21, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
GoodDay, BeFriendlyGoodSir, Nemov, Skipple see the above comment of mine. All links in the above lead to the same sandbox article of mine. As I've thought about it more, the 1901–1968 articles would be visually great. My feelings on say, 2011, where post-1960 articles have small leads... I'm still not in love with it but I think it's the best option. For seasons like 2019 where there are big leads, I think they fit nicely under the infobox. Spesh531[[User talk:Spesh531|(talk]contrib., ext.) 15:36, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I still don't think the maps are required. But, I'll leave that final decision up to others. GoodDay (talk) 20:19, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Season pages doesn't seem like the correct place for these types of maps. - Skipple ☎ 03:05, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
I've deleted the maps from all the season pages. BTW @Spesh531: created & added them, earlier this year. GoodDay (talk) 03:07, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Great, nicely done. I added the maps to Expansion of Major League Baseball. There is also Timeline of Major League Baseball as you know but not a good fit there. Any feedback is welcomed. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 06:04, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
I'm not certain how to shrink the maps, but they certainly need shrinking. GoodDay (talk) 06:14, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
I see GoodDay knows how to shrink it. Should be good now. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 06:25, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Reduced 1997 to present templates from 625 width to 400. Clumps the teams up a tad bit, but gives more room for readers. Besides, an editor can always click onto those maps to make them bigger. GoodDay (talk) 06:29, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
It may be conducive to separate out the 1997 to present templates into NL and AL maps, to reduce clutter (as they are pre-1996). Spesh531(talk, contrib., ext.) 15:14, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
I agree that 1997 templates should be separate NL and AL maps. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 21:08, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Done! Spesh531(talk, contrib., ext.) 17:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Since maps are up on NFL and MLS season pages (and nobody opposed when I asked on their respective Wikiprojects), I think they should also be up on MLB season pages for the purpose of congruity. NFL/MLS have not seen more expansions over their lifetimes. If it fits in snug like the NFL/MLS season pages, I don't see why not. But I am only one person. How do others feel about this? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 22:09, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Infobox advice

What type of infobox would you use on Drew Golz?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:51, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Is he even notable? Never played professionally.. a division III ballplayer? Spanneraol (talk) 22:48, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
The first item at WP:NCOLLATH is "Have won a national award". He was the first baseball player to earn the overall (all-sport) Academic All-American of the Year recognition and the first person to win Academic All-American of the Year for his sport in two sports. He is not conventionally notable for his baseball, but rather for the fact that he maintained a 3.98 GPA in the Chemistry department while being all-conference in two different sports. I think he is notable, but would stand corrected if people feel otherwise. Basically he has conferred honor on his sport by being the best scholar athlete a baseball player could be.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:00, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
Not sure that "academic all-american" counts as a major national award... or having a 3.98 GPA in Chemistry.... I wonder how that distinction survived the purge at that page.. if academic all-americans are notable but major league ballplayers arent then the page has serious problems. Spanneraol (talk) 23:50, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
I am not trying to say that All Academic All-Americans of the Year are notable. He is a special case as explained above.---TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:39, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Oh yeah. Those classic loopholes like "such as XYZ league" or "any award in <insert loosely discriminate template>".—Bagumba (talk) 01:48, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
{{Infobox person}} and then embed the baseball and soccer infoboxes. See Sammy Byrd for an example. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:32, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
User:Muboshgu, I have employed the infobox setup you have suggested. Let me know if you have any feedback.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:49, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
No longer watching here.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:43, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Legacy of Roberto Clemente

I would like the opinion of long-time participants of this on the article "Legacy of Roberto Clemente". I personally don't see a need for a seperate page dedicated to it since Clemente's legacy is his career which is covered in "Roberto Clemente". But should it be deleted and merged back to the main article or should it be kept and expanded? If kept, should other players have seperate "legacy" articles too? (note: this is the only legacy page dedicated to an athlete) I would appreciate some feedback. Thank you. Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:45, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Note: I did try to speedy delete, blank and redirect, and Afd this article since I don't think its necessary and its an outlier of sorts. Some editors were strongly against deleting it though. I ended up just shortening it by removing a long list of quotes (moved them to Clemente's Wikiquote page and added the link to the page) but am lost as to what I can possibly add to it that isn't already in the main article. Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:48, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Don't see the need for a separate article. We already have Roberto Clemente#Honors and legacy. --Jameboy (talk) 18:50, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
It's a tricky area, as the topic undoubtedly meets English Wikipedia's standards for having an article, but that doesn't mean an article must exist. Editorial judgement can decide that the topic is more easily covered within another article. Thus the decision to be analyzed is whether or not it's easier to cover Clemente's legacy within his biography than in a spin-out article. For better or worse, this involves a degree of subjective judgement. Editor traffic and page watcher counts for the two articles provide some indication of the amount of maintenance support each is capable of receiving, but it's not definitive by itself. isaacl (talk) 19:13, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
I definitely agree with the subjective judgement part. My own personal opinion is that such info can easily fit into Clemente's biography because just about all well-written biographies of ballplayers (most notably Ruth and Jackie) have legacy sections that fit within the acceptable word limit.
On the same note, I would like to add that "Roberto Clemente" needs to a lot of attention and work done on it (and possibly permanent semi-protection due occasional bursts of disruptive edits by... users with strong opinions, lets say). Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:58, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Clemente's bio has 229 page watchers, while the legacy page has fewer than 30 (thus the page information won't show an exact number), so arguably the primary article has a greater capacity for resilience against vandalism. isaacl (talk) 22:47, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
That makes sense. I brought it up mostly because I thought it, while we decide on what to do with legacy article, we can also see if we can improve and clean up the bio itself. I guess we'll figure that out as we go along. Omnis Scientia (talk) 23:23, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Just to push this conversation along, @Muboshgu @Spanneraol, pinging you for an opinion on this. I think its an important discussion to have. Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:21, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
I don't have strong feelings about this.. but the Legacy article seems to be primarily just a list of books about him and that doesn't need it's own article. The other stuff is easily covered in the main article. Spanneraol (talk) 18:56, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
@Spanneraol, it was previously a list of quotes taken from Wikiquote AND a list of books. I removed the quotes and replaced it with the wikiquote link. But I came here as a last resort, essentially, because I tried everything to delete/redirect the page to "Roberto Clemente" and am not sure where to go from here. I don't know what to add which isn't already covered in the main article - hell even the books are listed in "further reading". I hoped someone here had an idea as to what to do about it. Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:05, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
I'm not a fan. Looking at a couple of the Category:Legacies by person articles, Legacy of Leonid Brezhnev and Legacy of Napoleon give critical analysis of their, well, legacies. Legacy of Roberto Clemente looks more like a content fork of "in popular culture" with one banal quote from Carlos Correa that could really be considered "legacy". – Muboshgu (talk) 19:46, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
@Muboshgu, so what would you do here? Should we change its scope? Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:08, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
Either that, or merge the content back into Clemente's article. There may be enough legit "legacy" items to justify such a page, but that ain't it. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:13, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
I tried blank and direct, as well as speedy delete and Afd, but since it meets the requirments of an article a lot of people objected to it. Changing its scope is really the only option left. If you and others on here agree, that is.
Worth noting, I did check if there was something to write which may have been missed but there isn't really more to write that isn't already covered in Clemente's article or its sister articles which there were enough of to create a template and a category to collect. I don't think we need yet another page. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:34, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
I almost missed this discussion because I have been hard at work drafting Legacy of Jesse Haines. After all, Haines was a Hall of Famer and a nice chap, and if that's not deserving of two articles, I don't know what would be. I even have a head start because in the legacy section of the main article, Frankie Frisch said Haines was “a worthy, worthy man” and “a fine fellow”. If I run into any difficulty, “legacy” is vague enough that I should be able to throw in most of the things anyone has ever said about him.
In all seriousness, it sounds like we're stuck with this, but it doesn't look like the existence of this entry has inspired similar bad ideas. I do notice that Roberto Clemente was delisted from GA status years ago, and it looks like a peer review has been requested. I'm encouraged to see that it may be getting back to GA soon. Larry Hockett (Talk) 21:38, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
@Larry Hockett, it was created by a fan to be just that: a list of random quotes about Clemente -they even said as much in the talk page of the main article. I do think a second Afd would work if people on here support its deletion/redirection. The one I started failed because two people voted 'keep', one of whom told me he votes 'keep' on everything. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:56, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

FAR for PNC Park

I have nominated PNC Park for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm Talk 20:09, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Split discussion at Baltimore Elite Giants

There is a discussion underway about possibly splitting the Baltimore Elite Giants into the Cleveland Cubs as 2 distinct teams. If interested, please join in at Talk:Baltimore Elite Giants#1931 season: Cleveland Cubs/Nashville Elite Giants. Rgrds. --BX (talk) 04:40, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Disambiguation for managers

I noticed the title Dave Roberts (baseball manager), while WP:NCBASEBALL shows an example to use the shorter Fred Thomas (manager) (which now redirects to Fred Thomas (baseball manager). A search shows that all (manager) titles for baseball redirect to (baseball manager). Should this existing practice be updated in the guideline? Initially, I thought it was longer than needed, unless there were other manager bios by that name, but if that's what we're already consistently doing... —Bagumba (talk) 13:58, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I updated the guideline to show Fred Thomas (baseball manager) instead. —Bagumba (talk) 05:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Notice of multiple RMs related to Major League Baseball

There is a bundle of requested moves related to changing the titles of articles from "Major League Baseball" → "MLB". You may wish to provide your input at Talk:Major League Baseball#Requested move 14 April 2024. - Skipple ☎ 03:35, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

"has previously played" vs "has also played"

I've been thinking about the way the current player articles are written in the lead... Player X plays for Team Y in Major Legaue Baseball (MLB). He has previously played in MLB for Team Z, Team A, etc.... Not sure using "previously" is proper ... some times its actually inaccurate in situations like Matt Carpenter who started with the Cardinals and then played for a couple of other teams and then came back to the Cards... so saying he plays for the cards and previously played for the Yankees is actually wrong.. cause he was with the Cards first. I think "has also played for" makes more sense to keep all current players consistent and avoid using previously.. Spanneraol (talk) 00:41, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I feel it's still accurate to say that Matt Carpenter previously played for the Yankees and Padres, even if he also had a previous tenure with the Cardinals. I'm not a fan of dictating that there be only one form for listing a player's teams. In a case like Carpenter where most of his career is with one team, for instance, the text could be something like "After debuting with the Cardinals and playing for them from 2011 to 2021, Carpenter played for the Yankees and the Padres, before returning to the Cardinals in 2024." isaacl (talk) 02:29, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
"plays for the cards" is dealing with his current stint, so saying previously played for NYY in that context is OK. It becomes a problem when he retires, then saying "previously" w.r.t. the Yankees might be incorrect if its ambiguous which STL stint is being referred to. I agree that we're never going to get a cookie-cutter one size fits all format, but editors should be aware of the gotchas of using various wordings. —Bagumba (talk) 01:11, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

"were" vs "was" for describing former teams

we seem to have a mismatch of "was" vs "were" in describing former teams. see New York Giants (baseball), for instance (were) vs Chicago Pirates (was). I assume "were" is correct just based on the number of teams in the Players' League with this description? Therapyisgood (talk) 14:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Should treat team names as plural per MOS:PLURALS:

In North American English...the major exception is that when a sports team is referred to by its short name, plural verbs are commonly used, e.g. the Heat are playing the Lakers tonight.

—Bagumba (talk) 15:13, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Ghost runner, automatic runner, etc.

Can't find almost anything about the extra inning ghost runners when, after discussing it with a friend, just assumed Wikipedia would have an article about them. Sometimes called "automatic runner", which has not page or redirect. Anybody else notice the absence of an important baseball article? As a position player the ghost runner should have a page. But even Rules of baseball has nothing about it. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

We do mention it at Extra innings#Major League Baseball, but it should probably be more places than it is. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:09, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Extra innings § Regular season (which is a subsection of Extra innings § Major League Baseball) has a description. Although "ghost runner" is used in by some, the MLB term "automatic runner" avoids confusion with the playground term, where "ghost runners" are used when just a few people are playing together and so a runner may have to go to bat. Personally, I don't think a separate article is warranted, but having a description in Baseball rules is probably worthwhile (it already contains league-specific info for games tied after nine innings). isaacl (talk) 23:20, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
"ghost runner" is inaccurate since there is an actual runner not a "ghost". I still absolutely hate the rule cause i'm a traditionalist and I really enjoy the long extra inning games... I still remember attending a Dodgers/Braves game at Dodger Stadium in 1996 that went 18 innings..[2] Ramon Martinez came in to pitch in relief on like two days rest and pitched four innings before coughing up the go-ahead run.. but it was a fun time. Spanneraol (talk) 00:40, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, I think it sounds odd to anyone who has used ghost runners when playing a game with a few friends, as it's kind of the opposite intent: real runners are placed on base who didn't bat, versus taking runners who did bat off the bases. isaacl (talk) 00:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
Perhaps an entry at Glossary of baseball terms with a redirect for the term to there? —Bagumba (talk) 01:03, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
I'd suggest that a full article is warranted by the fact that the runner, whatever the term, is now a mandated offensive position player. And all position players have articles. "Ghost runner" seems to be one of the common names, I think because the runner just "pops in" without any physical reason to be there. Harvey Haddix is turning over on his mound. Since I don't keep track of modern baseball, and the new rules have made it into a different game, I came looking for the ghost runner Wikipedia article and found there was none. Just would put up a stub if I started it, so someone who is good at creating pages and likes the subject maybe should go for it, and then we'll see what the page looks like. When I came looking for it it was to find out (hopefully in its lead), the history of the rule, if the runner gets credit for a run scored if driven in, and does the batter get credit for an RBI? And does it count in the ERA and won-lost record of the pitcher scored against? But most of all, the question I'd ask the commissioner, who likely had final yes-no rule approval, "Why did you ignore first base?". Randy Kryn (talk) 03:31, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
Could go from glossary to an article too. Depends if someone wants to create a stub or not, if they're not ready to put together a decent size article. As for 1B, 2B can only speed up games more, which is their current objective.—Bagumba (talk) 04:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
An Automatic runner stub sounds easy (too easy, some good images come to mind, and the page should probably include a criticism section). Thinking about it, the ghost seems to be only the second offensive mandated player in the game (the other one being the Batter), so a stand-alone article seems appropriate. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
  • Could someone else please start an Automatic runner stub? There are plenty of sources, many when searching "Automatic runner" (Here's one from the Sporting News). I just learned a few minutes ago that the pitcher is not charged for an earned run when the ghost/automatic runner scores, which goes to my level of understanding of the topic and why, in addition to my general dislike of the rule change, someone who knows its history and elements should start the page, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:58, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
    I'm not convinced it needs a standalone article. For the time being, I've created a redirect to Extra innings#Regular season, but anyone should feel free to replace it with a stub article. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 15:08, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Sign stealing#Requested move 26 April 2024

There is a RM name change discussion occurring at the Sign stealing talk page which may interest project members. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:09, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Sidebar on MLB Awards article and related?

See List of NBA awards for the inspiration. It includes Template:NBA Awards as a sidebar at the top of the article. Would anyone be in favor of adding {{MLB awards}} to the top of List of Major League Baseball awards? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:18, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Sidebars are more useful on the individual awards pages, allowing navigation to the other awards. List of Major League Baseball awards already has a comprehensive list, even without a sidebar. The problem the NBA pages have, e.g. NBA Most Valuable Player Award, is that someone later went and added an infobox as well, which leaves the top of the page cluttered. I'd recommend having an infobox or a sidebar, but not both.—Bagumba (talk) 05:18, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Removing debut and final fields from Infobox baseball biography

I wanted to propose removing the fields for debut game and last game played from the {{Infobox baseball biography}} template. It unnecessarily adds vertical height to the infobox with a minimum of 4 table rows (debut game label, debut game date, final game label, final game date), and for some players like Ichiro who played in multiple leagues, there can be 6 rows — all just so we have a begin date and end date to their career. Secondly, it's essentially duplicative with the teams parameter that shows the years that the player spent with each team, and in the grand scheme of things, there isn't much value added from knowing the month and day they started or ended their career. Thirdly, I don't see any sportsman infoboxes other than cricket that allow specific dates to be provided for the debut and finale of one's career (for cricket, it's only for international competition), so this would be consistent with most other sports. What do other people think? Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 15:01, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I think in baseball specific dates for these debut dates are more notable than in other sports that have less games...like football or basketball... and it tends to be mentioned a lot in reliable sources... so I would be opposed to removing that item from the infobox. Spanneraol (talk) 15:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
I do not feel this information is essential for a concise overview of the key characteristics of a player, which is my personal rule of thumb for infobox contents, so I agree with removing it. It's not clear to me that having a longer season is a consideration in evaluating the essential nature of the info. isaacl (talk) 16:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with this, it's incredibly useful information to have in order to see the length and scope of a player's career, and baseball players more than any other sport can start or end their careers at different points of the season. It's especially useful for players who aren't necessarily all stars. SportingFlyer T·C 17:30, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
How are you not able to determine the length or scope of someone's career from the teams played for list? It gives a sequential list of the teams the person played for and years of their tenure. If you want to know when their career started and ended, look at the first and last teams played for in the list. How is baseball any different from other pro sports in terms of when during a season someone's career may start or end? Injuries, call-ups, and signings/releases are not unique to baseball. There is no reason I need to know Joe Schmoe debuted in MLB on June 2, 1959, in the infobox. Knowing he debuted in 1959 is sufficient for an infobox, which is meant to be a high level summary of the person, and the year can already be gleaned from info elsewhere in the infobox. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 18:33, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
You might not, but it's good information to me, considering it shows if they were a late season call up, made the opening day roster, retired mid season, et cetera. SportingFlyer T·C 03:27, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
I'm undecided, but I thought it might be helpful to illustrate the difference with and without. I chose Ichiro. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:45, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Ichiro's current infobox
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


Ichiro Suzuki
Ichiro with the Seattle Mariners in 2011
Right fielder
Born: (1973-10-22) 22 October 1973 (age 50)
Nishikasugai-gun, Aichi, Japan
Batted: Left
Threw: Right
Professional debut
NPB: 11 July, 1992, for the Orix BlueWave
MLB: 2 April, 2001, for the Seattle Mariners
Last appearance
NPB: 13 October, 2000, for the Orix BlueWave
MLB: 21 March, 2019, for the Seattle Mariners
NPB statistics
Batting average.353
Hits1,278
Home runs118
Runs batted in529
Stolen bases199
MLB statistics
Batting average.311
Hits3,089
Home runs117
Runs batted in780
Stolen bases509
Teams
Career highlights and awards
NPB

MLB

Medals
Men's baseball
Representing  Japan
World Baseball Classic
Gold medal – first place 2006 San Diego Team
Gold medal – first place 2009 Los Angeles Team
Ichiro's infobox without debut and final dates
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


Ichiro Suzuki
Ichiro with the Seattle Mariners in 2011
Right fielder
Born: (1973-10-22) 22 October 1973 (age 50)
Nishikasugai-gun, Aichi, Japan
Bats: Left
Throws: Right
NPB statistics
Batting average.353
Hits1,278
Home runs118
Runs batted in529
Stolen bases199
MLB statistics
Batting average.311
Hits3,089
Home runs117
Runs batted in780
Stolen bases509
Teams
Career highlights and awards
NPB

MLB

Medals
Men's baseball
Representing  Japan
World Baseball Classic
Gold medal – first place 2006 San Diego Team
Gold medal – first place 2009 Los Angeles Team
Strong oppose, no real reason for removal given, and the start/end dates are perfectly valid to have in the infobox; in Ichiro's case the infobox is hardly any smaller. It feels like everything these days is a solution in search of a problem. Wizardman 21:25, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't see a compelling reason for removal. I share Spanneraol's perception of debut dates as being more significant in baseball than in other sports. Agree that this looks like a solution in search of a problem. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:39, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Personally, I don't feel baseball to be an outliner with regards to debut dates versus debuts in leagues for other sports, such as the NHL for hockey. Midseason call ups, injury replacements, playoff pushes, and the end of college seasons, for example, are common reasons in the NHL that spread out debuts throughout the season. This information is indeed important within the article text to describe a player's career. I just don't feel it to be sufficiently key to meet my personal rule of thumb for inclusion in the infobox. isaacl (talk) 22:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
MLB.com and all baseball stat sites list the first appearance in the key info on their pages.. That is not the case for any other sport.. where it is hard to even find that info.. so yes it is more notable. Spanneraol (talk) 23:51, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Sites have game log information for NHL players, for instance, so it's not hard to find out the information. isaacl (talk) 00:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
It's buried under other menus.. not positioned prominently in those other sports. Spanneraol (talk)
Sure, that was just in response to your statement that it's "hard to even find that info". Stat sites put all sorts of stuff up front. For example, Baseball Reference includes nicknames, but the consensus here is not to put nicknames in the infobox. English Wikipedia can have different standards for inclusion. isaacl (talk) 00:54, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
FWIW, Basketball Reference has the debut,[3] similarly collapsed like in Baseball Reference. —Bagumba (talk) 05:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
I agree with the above suggestions that debut dates are more significant than in other sports. It seems worth noting that the Sports Reference sites appear to agree - Baseball-Reference does include a player's debut and final games in the block of information at the top of a player's page ([4]), but the sites for pro football, basketball, and hockey don't do that: [5], [6], [7]. Egsan Bacon (talk) 23:40, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
  • I never look at the debut date section of the infobox. I would just look in the list of teams played for and that has the dates played in parenthesis [Orix BlueWave (1992–2000) ... Seattle Mariners (2018–2019)]. I've always been satisfied with just the year and not the month and day. The infobox, to me, is for an overview and the specific dates can go in the text. YMMV. Rgrds. --BX (talk) 04:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
    Since this is turning into more of an RfC-type !vote, I support full removal of the dates from the infobox as per the OP. Rgrds. --BX (talk) 04:12, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Support removal per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE:

    The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance

    Other sites aren't overwhelmingly featuring it as key info—it's even collapsed in Baseball Reference. MLB.com isn't an independent source.—Bagumba (talk) 10:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Analysis of other sites I looked at the stats links at Mariano Rivera § External links:

Site analysis
Site Debut Last
MLB Yes No
ESPN No No
Baseball Reference Collapsed Collapsed
Fangraphs No No
Retrosheet Yes Yes

—Bagumba (talk) 05:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

  • Oppose The dates are an important enough fact to be included do not violate MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Nemov (talk) 13:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
    I haven't seen a convincing argument why the date (as opposed to the year) is important enough, except that "other sites list it". Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 13:35, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
The baseball season is extremely long compared to other sports and just saying they debuted sometime that year is insufficient. Spanneraol (talk) 14:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Extremely long in games? OK. However, over a calendar year, this year's NHL season (191 days) is 6 days longer than this year's MLB season (185 days). For an infobox, I still don't see the value in knowing if someone debuted within April or September of a given year. The infobox is meant as an overview, not a list of key dates in someone's career. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 14:24, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Well I disagree with you.. baseball has a lot more roster churn than other sports and the date someone debuts is a key moment. And I don't see the point in removing something that has been there since the beginning and is on most other baseball sites just cause you personally are somehow offended that it adds a couple of extra lines to the info box. If someone only played a couple of weeks it would be very obvious from the first and last dates as opposed to thinking they played a whole season and someone debuting in September during expanded roster periods is certainly different than debuting in April. In Ichiro's case above he seems to have extra stats and awards that I'd remove first if the length of his box is too long for you. Spanneraol (talk) 15:45, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
It's not that it's personally offensive to me, but it's just unnecessary to add (min.) 4 table rows in order to display (min.) 2 dates. We should be striving to simplify infoboxes and find more efficient ways to display the info. (For example, maybe we only need 1 stat table but we could change it to have the stats listed in 2 columns, one for each league. That would save a great deal of space.) All the other reasons I feel the debut and finale dates are inessential I've already covered and won't rehash. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 16:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
I haven't seen a convincing argument that this an actual problem. Nemov (talk) 18:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Amen. This discussion is a classic example of 'solution in search of a problem.' Our baseball player infoboxes are just fine the way they are. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:03, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't think the debut or last game played dates by themselves make it obvious how many games were played during that year. They just set an upper bound on how many might have been played. If there is a consensus that providing games played info for the debut/last year is sufficiently key to include in the infobox, then the count should be directly included. isaacl (talk) 21:55, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
My first instinct was this is useful and should be kept. But the info about other sports and other baseball almanacs moves me to neutral. However, if kept I think it needs to be moved below the teams as it's a subset of that data and is just too prominent in the infobox at the moment. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:57, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
  • Keep Key info that shouldn't be removed and does not pose a sufficient bloating enough to run afoul of INFOBOXPURPOSE. The idea that there's no value in knowing if someone debuted in April or September of a given year shows a lack of understanding of the sport, to be blunt. oknazevad (talk) 05:12, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
    Making an editorial decision doesn't mean there's "no value" in what is potentially removed. —Bagumba (talk) 05:21, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
    I was responding with a close paraphrase to an above comment. I fundamentally disagree with that commenter's rationale of not seeing the value in including the date in the infobox. Whether someone debuted at the beginning of a season or as a September call-up is a very notable aspect of of their career and should be in the infobox. oknazevad (talk) 05:44, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
    The thing is that there's a lot of nuance and context that I feel is better explained in text. An opening day debut is significant, but I think that would be more clearly communicated by saying "opening day" instead of a date, since most people won't know the team's opening day date for each year by memory. A debut somewhat later in the year could have lots of reasons: it might be an injury replacement, a reset of the roster, a trade, an expected return from rehab that extended into the season, and so forth. Prior to 2020, a September debut usually signified an opportunity to play due to an expanded roster, but that's also not necessarily the case. A September debut is correlated to playoff eligibility, but not perfectly: being on the 40-player roster before September, even without having debuted, would still make a player eligible. A short phrase describing the reason for the debut would better capture the notable start of the player's career, but typically the consensus on English Wikipedia is to include more descriptive infomation in the main text. isaacl (talk) 21:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
more information can be found in the main text but the date itself should remain in the info box so it is easy to spot. No reason to make a change on it. Spanneraol (talk) 22:37, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
I've often been curious about the debut/last date and the infobox is a great place for it. You would lose it in text, as it's closer to data than prose. SportingFlyer T·C 03:29, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Lack of understanding, my ass. I know what the difference is between playing one month at the end of the season after getting called up from the minors and playing from Opening Day. Are most other readers looking for a quick snapshot of someone's career going to care? Probably not! All these extraneous details get overly romanticized. What guarantee is there that someone started playing in April didn't get hurt after 2 games or wasn't sent down for poor performance? The body of the article is the place for all of this detail, instead of contributing to infobox bloat. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 03:53, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Oppose. I think debut and end dates are especially useful for lesser known players, as it helps define what era they played in and who their opponents were (Did they have to face Cy Young? Etc.). The vertical height of the infobox shouldn't take precedence over the information provided in the box.Orsoni (talk) 16:23, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Major League Baseball shortened to MLB

Resolved

Per consensus at Talk:National Basketball Association#Requested move 28 February 2024 and Talk:National Football League#Requested move 3 March 2024, I think it would be appropriate for a consensus to be reached for MLB. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 03:36, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

It appears it was already attempted: Talk:Major League Baseball#Requested move 14 April 2024.-- Yankees10 03:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
And snow closed. Rgrds. --BX (talk) 03:50, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
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