Talk:University of Montana/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Section Suggestions

Please feel free to contribute. I'll try to do the grunt work if necessary Dsetay (talk) 21:06, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Lead in

This is the part every website copies. Need to make it short, nice and precise.

Mission Statement

Keep or not? I like it and think it gets us back to the basics of the university, but I'm sure opinions vary.

History

Need to divide this section into further subsections to facilitate expansion.

  • Historical "eras" suggestions?
  • Separate Timeline page or even a collapsible table?

Possible subsections

  • Founding
  • Name Phases (UM --> MSU --> UM)

1893-1912 University of Montana
1913-1934 State University of Montana when the Montana Univ. System was established
1935-1965 Montana State University
1965-Present University of Montana
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsetay (talk • contribs) The University of Montana at Missoula was established in 1893. In 1913 Montana's higher education system was unified under the name University of Montana, and the name of the university at Missoula was changed to State University of Montana. In 1965 the name of the statewide office was changed to Montana University System. Under the system were the University of Montana at Missoula (formerly Montana State University), Montana State University at Bozeman (formerly Montana State College), Western Montana College at Dillon (formerly Montana State Normal School), Eastern Montana College at Billings, and Northern Montana College at Havre. Dsetay (talk) 06:27, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

  • Athletic Conference affiliation

Campus

  • Expansion Stages
    • Land and Buildings?
    • Graphic Timeline?
  • Intro in Map and Buildings section before sending off to separate page.

Landmarks

  • Expand certain Landmarks into separate pages?
  • Add Grizzly Bear Statue as separate from The Oval?
  • Other notable landmarks?
What landmarks are notable enough to have their own separate articles? (Sorry, if this isn't the appropriate area to put this comment. Feel free to move). ITasteLikePaint (talk) 06:10, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Organization & Administration

  • Add separate Academic subsection?
  • Add Library Subsection with link to the main Library Page
  • Reorganize?
  • Discipline bifurcation vis-a-vis MSU
  • Notable programs?
    • Or should this be placed under programs respective College/School Pages.
  • Create Pages
    • College of Arts and Sciences
    • College of Health Professions and Biomedical Sciences
    • College of Visual and Performing Arts
    • College of Education and Human Sciences

Media

  • Is it all there?
  • Historical background
  • Setbacks and Advances
  • Better Layout?

Student Life

  • Add Kyi-Yo subsection and separate page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsetay (talk • contribs) 21:12, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Greek Life

  • Historical Introduction?
  • Any notoriety

International Programs

  • History
  • Types of Programs
  • Central Asia Program

Transportation

Lead in Paragraph and more flow.

Athletics

  • Rephrase intro.?

Presidents of the School

  • Create pages for more notable Presidents and link to them

Points of Interest

  • Ways of integrating these into the body of the text?
  • Or should all UM related pages be on a table here?
  • Or should only a couple be placed here and then a link to the UM Categories page?

Noted People

  • Reorganize?
  • What is deemed notable? Anyone with a Wiki page?
    • if the latter, should a separate page be set up?

See also

  • Most of these are already listed in the Navigation Box in the bottom or linked elsewhere in the page.
  • Should this be replaced with an External Links section?

Useful sources/links for future and present sections

Basic

Academics

University Websites

Government report

grants awards

newspapers UM researchers receive $382,000 NSF grant

Art

From the Montanan Magazine

Athletics

From the Montanan Magazine

Facilities

Monte

School Song

Brawl of the Wild

History and Architecture

From the Montanan Magazine

University websites Memorial Row Website

Newspapers

Google books with downloadable PDFs


A.J. Gibson

Montanan Magazine

Newspapers

Library

From the Montanan Magazine

Library website

Presidents

Specific programs or schools

Griz Greats

From the Montanan Magazine —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsetay (talk • contribs) 18:21, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia categoris'

Grammar

  1. Corrected grammar -- changed "The University calls itself as a city within a city" to "The University calls itself a city within a city".

JimmyStutterer 21:17, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Needs work

This page needs LOADS of work. I don't have tons of time to work on it, but I'll start. People need to realize that this very page may be the first introduction that prosective students have to the U. As it stands, I sure as hell wouldn't have picked UM if I had seen the lack of pride students have in something as important in today's landscape as the school's Wiki page. I'm just going to use other major schools' Wikis as a template and update from there. 192.77.161.22 17:15, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

What kind of work? What specifically about the page needs to be improved? How so?
Lastly, if you chose your college based on its Wikipedia article you made a very poorly informed choice indeed. Hyacinth (talk) 02:38, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Redirect

Why is this page called University of Montana - Missoula? Everyone simply calls it The University of Montana. The redirect should be to University of Montana from University of Montana - Missoula, rather than the other way around.--Theblackgecko 00:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

In general, you are correct, articles are title after the most common name for a subject.
For the conventions regarding school names, however, see Wikipedia:Naming conventions#School names. Hyacinth (talk) 02:40, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:UMLogo.gif

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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 21:58, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Name of article

I see this was discussed 3 years ago, but I think the article should be moved to "University of Montana". The school's own website never refers to itself as the "University of Montana-Missoula", even on the page that mentions the other affiliates (http://www.umt.edu/home/administration/). It's always "University of Montana". The afffiliate campuses do have either totally different names or an addition name (like University of Montana Western). A similar case would be Kent State University in Ohio. It is actually made up of 8 campuses, but the main and administrative campus in Kent, Ohio is never referred to as anything but Kent State University. In university publications it will sometimes be referred to as the "Kent Campus" but nothing more than that and never with the full university name. The media never uses "Kent Campus" to refer to the main campus at all. The regional campuses, however, always have an "at" with the university name, such as Kent State University at Stark or the full university name with the campus name (like Kent State University Stark Campus). Brigham Young University is another example. Because of the existence of Brigham Young University–Idaho and Brigham Young University–Hawaii, BYU is sometimes referred to as "BYU–Provo" but nowhere official, especially logos and other university sources. It is simply Brigham Young University. It doesn't seem to be like the University of Nebraska–Lincoln or the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill where the campus name is clearly used on the school's websites and in their logos. All University of Montana sources and logos simply use "University of Montana". --JonRidinger (talk) 03:42, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

I do oppose this but will also note the same situation exists for Montana State University-Bozeman. See also Montana University System. If you look at Montana Law, it IS the legal name of the school. Here is how it is stated in statute. And then UM in Missoula also has the "-Missoula" section further defined in statute. (Similar statutes also exist for MSU and the other schools in Title 20, chapter 25, part 2, MCA). So these are the legally proper names. What happened in Montana, thus making this situation possibly a bit different from Kent State or other states, is that a number of years ago, (in the 1990s) we had six wholly independent colleges/Universities in the system, plus some vo-techs. There was a consolidation, putting the six 4-year schools and the vo-techs all under the umbrella of MSU or UM. Thus Eastern Montana College and Northern Montana College came under the MSU umbrella, while Western Montana College and Montana Tech came under UM umbrella. This doesn't mean everyone was happy about it; in fact, most of the smaller colleges were very concerned about losing their identity and had much concern that this was a power grab by the two universities. UM explains their piece of it here and MSU does here. Both clearly they embrace this change, but to the point that they DO get a bit neglectful about mentioning the "flagship" campus as simply one of many on their home pages. In turn, while Eastern has adapted to its new status as MSU-Billings, and the two vo-techs liked it too, (see [1] and [2]), you see some of the other schools are still not "over it." See Tech in particular, which seems to avoid showing its status as part of UM anywhere, and even Western and Northern still promote their old identity first. All of this being a long explanation of why the name change won't work; it's in statute, and the schools are supposed to "suck it up" and play nice together even if most of them, each in their own special way, manage to irritate each other. (Grin) All that said, it is possible that the old UM title could maybe do like the MSU one and be made into dabs showing all of the schools under each "university sub-system," though it might be a little duplicative of the Montana University System article. Montanabw(talk) 22:26, 16 November 2011 (UTC) Follow up - I changed the redirect to a dab in the same style as the MSU "system" page. Montanabw(talk) 22:44, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the links. Here is what the MSU Style Guide page says: "When referring to the university, "Montana State University" must be used (not Montana State University-Bozeman.) To clarify our location, "Montana State University at Bozeman" or "Montana State University in Bozeman" can be used." The University of Montana Style Guide states: "The University of Montana- The correct first reference for the main Missoula campus. Exception: "UM" is fine for headlines. A hyphen followed by " Missoula " is no longer required. Wrong: The University of Montana-Missoula." In reading the statutes, it never gives the formal names of either MSU or UM's main campuses as "University of Montana-Missoula" or "Montana State University-Bozeman". It simply states that both schools have campuses in the following locations (establishing each respective system). I have seen similar state laws that are very specific about the names of each campus (such as in the University of Louisiana system which forbids a specific school from using the "University of Louisiana" name without "at"), but the Montana statute is not specific on the names, it just says "each designated by its legal name". Since neither "university" nor "state" are capitalized, there seems to be no indication that any of the names in the statute are actual legal names. --JonRidinger (talk) 23:59, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Here's where it gets hilarious: http://www.umt.edu/urelations/info/style/appendixd.aspx UM doesn't want the "-Missoula" designation used, but then it does just that to MSU, even though they insist they don't want it used either! LOL! (Oh, the rivalry!) To be honest, I have mixed feelings on the issue. I've personally thought the whole renaming thing was stupid in the first place, and I know from a job I have (at one of the "affiliated" campuses of one of these schools) that there is a whole "rebranding" initiative floating around to change the name of everything again, (rumor is the powers that be now want to take the word "University" off everyone other than the flagship MSU and UM campuses) so whatever we decide here on wiki, next year it is probably going to be different. So I guess all I have to say (other than Phooey! on both of them! LOL!) is whatever happens, it best be done identically in form for both schools, and the corresponding DAB pages dealt with, appropriate cross-linking performed, etc. And I don't want to be the one to do it (grinning, ducking and running...) Montanabw(talk) 22:38, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
I totally noticed that too how the UM page uses "Montana State University-Bozeman". Oh my. I think for Wikipedia purposes though, we can say that the "-Missoula" and "-Bozeman" appendages aren't really needed nor are they in any type of regular usage enough to affect the article name. The fact that both schools' current style guides specifically mention the name is our best clue, on top of the usage in third-party sources. If no one formally objects in the next few days, I have no problem doing the move and making sure the redirects are in place for both articles. --JonRidinger (talk) 01:46, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
I say for the sake of both clarity and practicality that both university pages remain with the hyphenated names with the general names redirecting to the hyphenated page. (i.e. searching for the University of Montana will lead you to the University of Montana - Missoula page as it already does). Besides, whether that website says so or not, both my degrees from there say Missoula on them.Dsetay (talk) 07:32, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure I agree with it being more clear or practical. Outside of Missoula, it's almost always referred to as just the University of Montana. If the style guide didn't specifically state what it does, "Wrong: University of Montana-Missoula" and the school's website had frequent usage of the hyphenated term, I'd probably just forget about it. The title should reflect the most common usage and here, the preferred name as well. It sounds like the official title has recently changed from one to the other and then back. Titles can and often do change. Since we're not a paper encylcopedia and can use redirects, there's no problem. What I would prefer here is have University of Montana go to this article with a hatnote "This article is about the main campus in Missoula. For other campuses, see Montana University System" or something like that. --JonRidinger (talk) 15:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
  • And, if Wikipedia was a university publication then what the UM style guide said would actually matter. Here is what the Montana University System refers to UM as: http://www.mus.edu/Universities/Missoula.asp. But hey, what does the governing body of Montana's higher education system know?Dsetay (talk) 17:59, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
You are correct that this is not a university publication, but in turn it is also not a Montana University System publication. It makes sense that within the MUS, the "-Missoula" appendage is used since it is in the context of the entire system. I've pointed to a similar occurrance in the Kent State University system. However, while this is not a UM publication, UM is the main subject, so going by the name they use themselves is a good idea, particularly when the current article title is specifically mentioned as an incorrect title for the school. On top of that, "University of Montana" is by far the most common name for the university in both primary and secondary sources, which is also part of the title policy (WP:UCN). The same is true for Montana State. --JonRidinger (talk) 20:05, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually, mus.edu IS the Montana University System's web site. But anyway, that aside, I did a little more digging in statute. Before proceeding, let me say that the results of my research go against my own personal feelings (I prefer the non-hyphenated forms) But, I think the law is the law. Here are the "legal names" for MSU-Bozeman and UM-Missoula. These statutes date to the 1994 reorganization (history shows statute amended in 1995) If you search titles of statutes and definitions for the word "University" you also find the hyphenated -Missoula and -Bozeman forms used. (Title 20 contains the education-related statutes in Montana). Given that BOTH schools are under the thumb of the Board of Regents of the Montana University System, see here and in the Constitution, I think that whatever they want to be called is all very nice, but they need to take it back to the legislature for it to be "legal." They just had the opportunity in 2011 and didn't take it. So while I am sure not going to get terribly emotional over this, I do think that if WP's policies favor statutorily legal names, then we are stuck with the hyphenated form. Montanabw(talk) 23:08, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Read the policy on titles as WP:UCN. Since this isn't determined by the legislature of Montana, there is no requirement that the "legal" name be used, especially if the main references to it are buried in statutes and both schools in question specifically ask anyone referring to the school to not use the hyphenated name. The title policy requires that the most common name be used as the title of the article, the name which is used most often in primary and secondary reliable sources: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article." The full legal name can be used within the opening paragraph. From reading the style guides for both schools, it sounds as if the hyphenated/extended names were preferred and used somewhat extensively following the 1994 establishment of the MUS, however, Wikipedia does not have to always reflect one time period since it isn't a paper encyclopedia. It seems fairly obvious to me that the hyphenated names are no longer used regularly and certainly aren't what the schools themselves even go by now. However, the most important aspect is how they are referenced in third-party reliable sources. The most common reference is to the University of Montana and Montana State University, in both cases referring to each schools' main campus. --JonRidinger (talk) 17:33, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
I realize that this may be complex, but the style guide is not a request from the university for how others refer to it (as I mentioned before, UM refers to itself as University of Montana - Missoula on its degrees), it is merely the guidelines for internal publications to establish consistency. There's also suggestions for how to spell "teepee" in the guide. Does that mean that any usage of the word must be spelled accordingly when referencing the school's annual Kyi-yo Pow-wow? Do websites get a phone call when they don't use the proper HTML code to display maroon? And remember, it's not maroon, it's copper. Regardless, the Montana University System trumps the school itself. After all, it's our board of regents that named the schools in the first place. Just ask the Agricultural College of the State of Montana. I'm sorry, I mean MSU.Dsetay (talk) 00:44, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
LOL! I personally think that the statute trumps all, but WHERE at UCN (a rather long and complex guide) are you specifically looking? As far as the hyphenated names go, I think it's safe to say that the "flagship" schools NEVER liked the hyphens, while the associated campuses adopted them almost immediately (except for Tech, which has consistently resisted being affiliated with anything but being in Butte!). My own view is that it may be worth just sitting this out for while and see where they are going with this whole "rebranding" thing. All the schools might be renamed again within a year or two. My more practical question is if we DO redirect, then what do we rename the dab pages that list all the other affiliated campuses and how do we make them easy to find via the "flagship" articles? Montanabw(talk) 02:31, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't think it's that loaded. Please understand I'm not trying to argue that the references for "-Missoula" are less valid or that the style guide reference is a slam-dunk. It isn't; it merely supports the notion that "University of Montana" is the name most often used (and now preferred by the school itself) to refer to the campus in Missoula. That's how articles are titled: whatever is the most common name. This is also a case where you'd look at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and where a Google search can come in handy. Now, a Google search is by no means a tell-all or final say, but it can be helpful in determining the primary topic of a word or phrase. In this case, "University of Montana" overwhelmingly points to the Missoula campus and the affiliate campuses are clearly marked and known by their hyphenated names, so having University of Montana a disambiguation page is not correct. That article should either be moved to a different title like "University of Montana (disambiguation)", "University of Montana sysyem" or deleted all together. The same is true for Montana State University.
An example is the article Montana. That article is about the state of Montana even though "Montana" can mean many other things. Because of the many other valid uses, there is a hatnote at the top of the Montana article that links interested readers to the page Montana (disambiguation). A university example is North Carolina State University, which is officially "North Carolina State University at Raleigh". The "at Raleigh" name redirects to "North Carolina State University" because that is the most common name of the school even though it is not the official name. NCSU is also the preferred name of the school. As such, the Wikipedia policy generally has the full official name in the intro, but not necessarily as the title. The University of Michigan, a featured article, has two regional campuses so it has a hatnote that links to the page University of Michigan (disambiguation). For the University of Illinois, that term redirects to University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign since UIUC is the official name, but also the preferred name of the school, while "University of Illinois" is a common and former name. The hatnote at the UIUC article has a link to the University of Illinois System rather than a "University of Illinois (disambiguation)" page. --JonRidinger (talk) 04:47, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I think using "Montana" is comparing apples and oranges, akin to a dab issue over, say, London. Besides, the state WON a lawsuit against Claude Montana over use of the name, so the law wins again! LOL! There seems to be no real consistency out there, IMHO. I guess my own view is that I want to see if they change the names of the affiliated campuses in the next year or so or not, and it's a PITA (pain in the ---) to keep moving and renaming articles, especially to keep the talk page and the history all together. Montanabw(talk) 01:50, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

This situation seems to me to be analogous to that of University of California, for which the title is used for the entire system, while the eponymous institution, University of California, Berkeley has its own page hatnoted from (and otherwise discussed in) the University of California article. Following that precedent, both University of Montana and Montana State University are better served by redirecting to that page, which thoroughly explains the relationship between all entities sharing variations of those names, than by a disambiguation page presenting the same information in a bare-bones format without additional explanation. bd2412 T 02:59, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

The difference with the University of California is that UCB's website and third-party sources frequently refer to it as "Berkeley", "UC Berkeley", or another variant of that, plus the University of California system does not have a clear flagship or main campus like Montana and Montana State do. Berkeley is the school that uses "Cal" or "California" for sports (since it's the oldest UC campus), but academically it does not use the "University of California" moniker without its campus name. For Montana and Montana State, the page Montana University System is where the relationship with affiliate campuses is already explained. The example above I mentioned with University of Illinois redirecting to University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign with a hatnote to the University of Illinois system and the other example I used where NCSU at Raleigh (official name according to the state of North Carolina) redirects to NCSU (the preferred and most common name) are what could be used here. Another one I noticed is Ohio State University which also has regional campuses. That article is about the main Columbus campus but has a hatnote to Ohio State University (disambiguation) for the other campuses. There is no real difference between the Montana State University "system" and the University of Montana "system"; they're both just divisions of the MUS, so we currently don't need separate articles for the overall system (MUS) and then each school's affiliate campus system. And again, with WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, the term "University of Montana" pretty much exclusively points to the campus in Missoula, both historically and currently not only in primary sources, but secondary sources as well. The same is true for MSU and the Bozeman campus. Whether or not the state does change the names in the future is irrelevant. What's important is what they're called now and what they are most commonly referred to. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball and moving articles is not overly difficult. --JonRidinger (talk) 03:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Sounds good, do that. The Michigan and Ohio State formula sounds fine to me. If you go through the trouble of doing it, I have no objection.Dsetay (talk) 05:02, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I will agree that to have two articles on the MSU or UM "systems" doesn't correlate with any actual title in statute, but the Montana University System (MUS, not to be confused with MSU) article kind of sucks and needs some work too. It will be important that if the MSU and UM articles do go the primary use route, that we be sure to list all the affiliated campuses somewhere in the articles, as I don't think they are well-explained at present. The problem here is historical -- there were once six totally separate schools, and MSU-Billings ("Eastern") in particular was pretty near to University status. So there probably needs to be SOMETHING, somewhere (maybe the MUS article) about the reorg. Maybe also check with bd, who commented on my talk page when I made the redirect into a dab, they seem to prefer a {{SIA}} tag over a dab tag for similar, but not identical institutions. But I guess if your message over at the MSU page about the rename generates no drama and consensus favors tossing the hyphen, I won't oppose it. Montanabw(talk) 05:37, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Not neutral, doesn't address negatives.

This article is far from neutral, and appears to be an advert for the University of Montana (though my attempt to mark it as such was reverted). I cannot find a single thing on this page that does not represent the university in a positive light. There is no mention of the sexual abuse scandal, the lawsuit by the Department of Education, the ADA lawsuit for being inaccessible to students with disabilities, etc. These things need to be addressed in a neutral article, not just the "sales pamphlet" version of the University. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StarlitGlitter (talk • contribs) 06:00, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Point taken, but such things need to be meticulously sourced. Read WP:V and WP:RS. Proper edits that are neutral and factual in tone, sourced to impeccable references, can stay. Unsourced ranting will not. Also, issues of only transitory interest (the University is sued over something every other week) do not need to be added; only the things that become of long-term interest. Montanabw(talk) 18:19, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

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Merge

The new article on Main Hall is just a stub. It needs to go to Campus_of_the_University_of_Montana#University_.28Main.29_Hall or to this article. Montanabw(talk) 22:45, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Concur. Deor (talk) 15:46, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

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