Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity

Military Frontier should be updated to Croatian Military Frontier

The main article about Nikola Tesla often mentions Military Frontier, but to be more precise it should be written Croatian Military Frontier because the Austrian Military Frontier had multiple districts spanning from Croatia to Romania including the Croatian Military Frontier. You can see more in detail about the subject in this Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Military_Frontier

At the time of Nikola Tesla birth and his elementary and high school education, Smiljan & Karlovac were a part of Croatian Military Frontier which was under administration of Austrian Empire. In 1881. Croatian Military Frontier was incorporated into Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia. Afordic (talk) 14:54, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

This is perfectly correct. Tesla was born in Croatian Military Frontier. You can try and make an edit request, but you'll find out that some editors here have a problem with the "Croatian" part of the Military Frontier. There is a long narrative present at this article that Tesla can be either "Croatian" or "Serbian". Some time ago the Serbian narrative came up top, and quite some "Croatian" narrative words were removed from the article. I'm of the opinion that Tesla is as much Croatian scientist as he is Serbian or American. I would say the sources agree, only some editors don't, for whichever reason. Bilseric (talk) 22:26, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

This was posted at a time the article text read:

Nikola Tesla was born an ethnic Serb in the village of Smiljan, within the Military Frontier, in the Austrian Empire (present-day Croatia), on 10 July [O.S. 28 June] 1856.

In the meantime, an edit was made by Tamerlanahayav (talk · contribs) [1] that would have changed this to:

Nikola Tesla was born an ethnic Serb in the village of Smiljan, within the Croatian Military Frontier, in the Austrian Empire (present-day Croatia), on 10 July [O.S. 28 June] 1856.

This was immediately reverted by Theonewithreason (talk · contribs).

Some of this was discussed in the the 2014 RFC at Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity/Archive 3, but this nuance was lost as it seems a lot of people involved in these topics have apparently been tendentious single-purpose accounts, so I don't think it makes sense to continue discussing this in this thread. --Joy (talk) 12:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I literally do not see a problem with specifying which Military Frontier Tesla was born in? It's factually correct that he was born in what was then the Croatian Military Frontier. Why can this not be amended? Tamerlanahayav (talk) 14:47, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Several people commented back in 2014 that it's excessive for the typical reader who doesn't care for this level of detail, as it's a distinction not typically raised by English-language Tesla biographies and instead sounds like a modern-day talking point. (The latter impression was reinforced by a steady stream of flamewars since.) --Joy (talk) 16:49, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

ancestors and surname etymology

While re-reading this recently, I noticed we have some weird vague statements about "ancestors" and how the surname Tesla came about. Both of these are referenced to O'Neill (1944), and linked to the Google Books copy of that, which says on page 12:

The Tesla and Mandich families originally came from from the western part of Serbia near Montenegro. Smiljan, the village where Tesla was born, is in the province of Lika, and at the time of his birth was a dependent province held by the Austro-Hungarian Empire as part of Croatia and Slovenia.

There's quite a few issues here:

We don't have many specifics about this original location, nor when was this original time.

At the time of Tesla's birth (1856), the Empire was not actually yet called Austro-Hungarian, because that term came into widespread use only with the Austro-Hungarian Compromise of 1867, a decade later.

The 'dependent province' was presumably the Military Frontier, which isn't named, despite naming quite a few other specific topics.

The dependent province is listed as part of Croatia, which would be against the local consensus here that the Frontier was still sufficiently distinct from Croatia at the time to not be called its part.

The term Slovenia is used instead of Slavonia. Admittedly a reasonably common typo, but it's not exactly great that nobody proofread that.

The next paragraph, in turn, says:

Tesla's surname dates back more than two and a half centuries. Before that time the family name was Draganic (pronounced as if spelled Drag'-a-nitch).

While this seems like an interesting detail, is something that had apparently happened in the early 1600s really relevant to Nikola Tesla's biography? And, with the level of inattention to detail displayed in the preceding paragraph, would we even be able to trust the precision of such a claim?

A bit later on page 13 there's:

There is a tradition in the Draganic family that the members of one branch were given the nickname "Tesla" because of an inherited trait which caused practically all of them to have very large, broad and protruding front teeth which greatly resembled the triangular blade of the adz.

So the source is... retelling family lore that is removed 250 years in time from Tesla's actual family? Or did a member of a living branch of the Draganić family tell him that? There are no inline references in the source itself to explain where the author came up with this.

All in all, I'm not sure this is a great source to use, and especially not one that should be used to reference WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims relevant because of the sensitive topic area, as of the implications here are a tad bit bizarre - it makes it seem we go out of our way to mention connections to Serbia from 250 years before Tesla's time, and also how his people have crooked teeth, but at the same time steer well clear of saying how Tesla grew up in Croatia even if our crooked-teeth source had zero qualms saying so.

This all helps explain why Croatian nationalists are so triggered by this text, but the larger problem here is that this is now such a weird narrative, it's just below the standard of an encyclopedia. --Joy (talk) 14:02, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Avoiding commenting on any nationalist implications, just on the basis of the dubious source and WP:UNDUE WEIGHT I don't think those trivial sentences belong in the article. --Chetvorno^TALK 15:38, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

The book actually has an article, Prodigal Genius, but doesn't mention much about reviews, this should be investigated. --Joy (talk) 17:50, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

This was since mentioned in Talk:Nikola Tesla#Prodigal Genius. @Fountains of Bryn Mawr given what you wrote there, which parts of the story about ancestors and surname etymology should be kept, if any? --Joy (talk) 19:53, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Since I was ping'ed here, two cents. The sources here seem to be "off the top of someone's head". We are talking about a messy part of the world, politically, that no one was probably keeping up with. We probably have O'Neill writing about things he is not going to research, not worth his time. We may have quotes from Tesla trying to recollect political setups from his early childhood. And we may have Tesla telling tall tails about teeth at one of his birthday parties, maybe miss-quoted by O'Neill. So yeah, I would skip quoting any of that as fact, It could be quoted as someone's opinion, if "who said what" could ever be run down. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 12:39, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

You should move this discussion to appropriate topic. Sources often state Austro-Hungary instead of Austrian Empire. They do not deal in depth with historical aspect of Austrian Empire at that time. This is understandable. Yes, I agree, presumably , the dependent province is Military Frontier because the description fits what historical sources say. The province indeed is listed as part of Croatia and Slavonia. Please not that this isn't against consensus. The consensus had only determined the wording in the article. I didn't notice the typo between Slovenia and Slavonia until you pointed it out. Maybe others haven't either, so it slipped. But, we can all agree it's a typo.

You can remove the trivial sentences about crooked teeth or the Draganic family. We don't need to find out whether that is correct or not, as it's irrelevant for this article. But, but please, don't disregard or tie those parts with the sentence "at the time of his birth was a dependent province held by the Austro-Hungarian Empire as part of Croatia and Slovenia", because this is supported by other sources as well, as listed in this discussion [2]. Bilseric (talk) 17:48, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Joy , I will point out the lack of objectivity and disregard for other sources you are aware of. Bilseric (talk) 17:51, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

What lack of objectivity? --Joy (talk) 17:55, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Please, don't imply this secondary source states anything that is wrong. It has some mistakes and typo-s, but those can be seen in other Tesla sources and are understandable. Nothing this source says is "wrong" based on the things you have said, you need to provide much more to make such claims. You are even aware of other sources which on some assertions you made support what is said in this source. This is not objective at all to disregard those sources. If you find something irrelevant for the article, have that discussion, not the discussion you are trying to have. Bilseric (talk) 18:17, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

It's apparently a book by a reputable author who personally knew Tesla and it makes various curious claims while not citing its own sources. Why would it be automagically beyond reproach? --Joy (talk) 18:22, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

There you have it. From Wiki point of view, this is secondary source and the author had done OR. It's not needed to provide footnotes for every single claim in the book. If we go by , "this claim doesn't have a footnote" , we can remove large parts of Wikipedia. I provided you with the way forward. Don't claim something is wrong with the soruce, but make a case why something is not needed in the article. From what I have read, it will accomplish the same without necessary discussion. You haven't even provided a clear request in the form "Replace A with B.". Bilseric (talk) 18:34, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

You made in unclear what you actually what to do, but from I can see, you will certainly not remove this sentence from the text "Tesla's ancestors were from western Serbia, near Montenegro". This is well sourced and a long standing content. Tesla's Serb ethnicity is well established and the consensus had determined that it's notable enough to be stated in the lead. There's no reason to have it in the lead, than remove this sentence from the body. If you want to remove it, a broader discussion is needed thank this. As for "crooked teeth" , go ahead, no complaints from me. Do not imply anyone was "triggered" by the referred text. It has been in the article for years without edit warring over it. Bilseric (talk) 19:43, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but these are pointless assertions. "It's been bad for years" is not a justification to keep all this random didascalia in. Why are we discussing edit warring, when no edits have even happened? The fact that people have been going into senseless fights over this text with nationalist undertones, and that something could be triggering all that, is just my observation of the situation. If you felt it's specifically targetting you or anyone else in particular, I'm sorry, it was not meant that way. --Joy (talk) 07:33, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The parts you are trying to remove had never been contested by anyone. No one had ever been "triggered" by those. I fail to see your motivation here. Thus I'm not seeing why it would need to be removed. Also, you pointed out several things and I'm not sure what parts we are even discussing. Please provide clearer request in the form "Replace A with B". Bilseric (talk) 09:04, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I explained how this all amounts to pointless content already, and my motivation is likewise stated clearly in the conclusion of my initial message. --Joy (talk) 09:30, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Because of this [3], I'm leaving this discussion. Bilseric (talk) 12:10, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

FYI: User:Bilseric has been blocked indefinitely for disruptive editing. There was suspicion at one time that he might be a sock, so editors should be on the lookout for other socks --Chetvorno^TALK 21:20, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't want to be associated in any way with this, so I'll write via ip. Let me get this straight, pretty much everyone who had pro Croatian point of view got blocked. You pretty much ignored any discussion here. Your whole involvement here in the past month was aimed to block this user. Now you are attacking the blocked user by suggesting he'll sock. Anyone who posts an edit request is pointed to years' old consensus disregarding all the sources posted in the years after. Consider closing this topic for good ,if this is the way you'll behave. There's a strong evidence of bad faith from all 4 of you involved in this events, not just him. His case is solved, but your manner will remain. That's why I have stayed away from this article. I strongly suggest others do the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.168.116.18 (talk) 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello, previously unknown anonymous user! If you're so intent on trying to keep some sort of a score, please don't miss the fact that with User talk:Spirit Fox99#May 2024 was likewise put on a block ultimatum after a wonderful little rant against me as a "Croation nationslist". What you're observing here is not some sort of a grand conspiracy against a pro Croatian point of view, it's just the volunteer editors of English Wikipedia having to deal with anonymous people violating all sorts of reasonable policies. Speaking of which, most of your statement is also a bizarre rant unsupported by facts or reason. If you wish to actually contribute to the encyclopedia, please do so without these kinds of harmful diatribes against imaginary enemies. --Joy (talk) 12:15, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

What I'm observing is bad faith from all 4 of you, no grand conspiracies. To be honest the least from you, but nonetheless. I can count personal accusations myself ,and this one that promped me to post this is just so plain. Not to mention that the whole thing started with D's personal accusations against B, followed by fake apology, immediately after which writing mails to admins requesting to reopen years old sock investigation, which is now mentioned by C. No one is innocent here, all 4 of you. You know what messages were exchanged. You got the mail I'm talking about (as did User:Vanjagenije and User:Bbb23), so please don't act so innocent with me. D was working on B's ban long before B made any personal accusations. No, he started with it ,as soon as B posted his first comment mentioning D. I said too much already, goodbye.

Sorry, what? You're reading into Doug Weller's confusion at #Participants on that subpage must give a policy-based reason why the terms used in the article are incorrect, or their comments will also be removed without reply from that page., and that's where the whole thing started? You don't think it started several years ago when Bilseric originally started posting endless rants about this topic?

Honestly, this is legitimately puzzling. You think the assumption of good faith should be automagically revoked from the administrators who had to clean up this gigantic mess? Yet, we should assume good faith from you, who refuse to even identify yourself under a nickname?

Eh, whatever, I've entertained this flamewar enough already. This is essentially a misuse of the article talk page in order to air arbitrary grievances. --Joy (talk) 16:26, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nikola Tesla isn’t American

I swear to God these americans are thinking famous people are their nationality when they’re not! Nikola Tesla only lived in the USA. He is Serbo-Croatian. Born in Croatia, Serbian family. 💀 Hellopreppy (talk) 17:50, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Tesla was an American citizen for 52 years and lived in the United States for most of his life. Cullen328 (talk) 17:56, 24 May 2024 (UTC)