Talk:Mexican drug war/Archive 1

Sergio Aponte Polito as commander in chief

Didn't he retire already due to age? At least I am sure that somebody else is in charge of the 2nd military region.

The article isn't precise, it says that since january 2006 there were over 2,000 deaths but on the right it says: Casualties: About 700 killed

Al Qaeda? This article is deeply wrong in that, I am from Mexico and Al qaeda has no networks here.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.145.16.90 (talk) 05:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Discussion on Diane Rehm Show

Drug Wars in Mexico:

The nation’s top drug enforcement officer was assassinated earlier this month, and many say the killing signals a new and more dangerous phase in that country’s battle against drug traffickers.

Guests:
Armand B. Peschard-Sverdrup, director of the Mexico Project at the Center for Strategic and International Studies
Joy Olson, Executive Director of the Washington Office on Latin America (WOLA)
Malcolm Beith, Mexico editor, The News

Listen now or look for the archive around 1pm EDT. -- Crnk Mnky 14:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Time Table of the conflict

i would like if somebody with experience on this to add a time table of the conflicts, such as gunbattles, major raids, or major arrest of corrupt officials, and cartel leaders. thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.35.204 (talk) 18:28, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

How about a link to the Timeline of the Mexican Drug War. BatteryIncluded (talk) 19:05, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

my fault, i didnt see the timeline article, either im blind or it was well hidden. thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.41.166 (talk) 22:18, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

"Guns smuggled in from the United States"

In one of the opening paragraphs, the sentence: "The Mexican cartels commonly use semi-automatic rifles such as the AR-15 and variants of the AKM, handheld grenades and a variety of other military caliber arms smuggled into Mexico from the United States." was in place. I took it out as it wasn't cited, although it was cited down below in a seperate section. I don't think the nature of where the arms come from is as important here as the conflict itself, so it seems a good idea to present the conflict itself in the opening paragraphs, rather than the materials of it. Also, I took out a section someone put in here (on the talk page) that included a personal view. It maybe sad that something or another happens, but that doesn't contribute to the article. If you think media coverage of the conflict is important, than please suggest a way in which it can be included in teh article.Scryer_360 (talk) 23:20, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

There is no armed conflic without arms. Gun-running from USA to Mexico is at the heart of this conflict.BatteryIncluded (talk) 05:23, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

For reasons of improved accuracy, I modified the legend for the AK photo. The weapon in the photo was not American-made as it was indicated in the legend. I looks like it has a milled receiver and as such it was likely produced in Eastern Europe. Indeed, the original website from which the photo was borrowed never states that it was "American-made." Within the Mexican Drug War article, the photo legend still has a link to a different website showing the location of US manufacturers of AK style rifles. While insteresting, I believe the link needs to be moved elsewhere (or removed). If we want to show an actual weapon that was US-made we should find one. However, in the final analysis, it really does not matter if the rifles are US-made or imported from elsewhere into the US, and then smuggled into Mexico. The effect is the same. Indeed, I would suggest that most of the AK style weapons that end up in Mexico were manufactured in Eastern Europe (specifically Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, and Yugoslavia). They were then imported to the US and had the required 922(r) compliance parts installed by US companies (e.g., Century Arms, Vector Arms, Global Trades Company (GTC), etc.). They were subsequently sold to individuals in the US (some being straw buyers) then smuggled to Mexico. Not home (talk) 13:57, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Good observation; the precise AK manufacturers are unclear so I agree that note must be deleted. go ahead with the changes to the photo caption. I believe it is critical that the article reflects the fact that the arms (AK in this case) are smuggled to Mexico via USA vendors. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 18:23, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I do believe the argument of where the arms are coming from is important as it has political ramifications in the US, is cited in almost every news article regarding "Mexican drug cartels", and these news articles are clearly wrong. I realize that the ATF and the Mexican government claim that 90% of the weapons seized by Mexican authorities are traced back to the US, but this is not supported by the fact that many of the weapons seized are regulated by the National Firearms Act, as well as the Firearms Owners Protection Act. These two laws are not just legislative barriers to the purchase of such arms, but are also economic as the price of these weapons makes them very rare. In this DoJ report - http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/documents/doj-accomplishments.pdf - it says that the Mexican government claims that the drug cartels in Mexico are using .50 caliber machine guns, fragmentation grenades, anti-tank rockets, and mortars to fight the police. A simple Google search will show that these weapons are covered by the NFA and FOPA, and thus are not readily available in the US. Anti-tank rockets such as RPGs/LAW M72A2; machine guns such as the M249 SAW; and fragmentation grenades such as the M67s pictured in the caption on this page are also covered by this legislation, and so it can't be logically argued that they are coming from the US. On top of this, for what it's worth, Lou Dobbs reported on CNN that Mexican officials have not been turning firearms serial numbers over to the US, meaning that perhaps the Mexican government is not being truthful. In the refference of azcentral.com (refference 54) it said that a gun store was raided because over "250 AK-47 automatic weapons" were seized. Good luck finding one automatic AK-47 in the US as they are extremely hard to find and cost about $14,000. My point in all of this is that the news reports are not giving factual information, and it deserves to be acknowledged on this page at the very least. CTone (talk) 16:01, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I note that the Mexican Army has, at some point in time, been issued as standard equipment every type of weapon that they supposedly get in the US at gun shows and of the same model as claimed on this page. Among them are the Colt AR family of rifles to include the AR15A3s, automatic AK-47s and AKMs, the little FN FiveSeveN, the M60 general purpose machine gun, the M203 grenade launcher, the RPG-7, the M249 SAW, and finally the M72 LAW; all of these have been claimed to have been used against the Mexican government by these cartels, and all of them (with the exception of the FiveSeveN) are virtually impossible to acquire in the US:

http://worldinventory.googlepages.com/wiw_sa_mexico

http://www.armyrecognition.com/mexico_army_military_equipment/mexico_mexican_army_land_ground_forces_military_equipment_armoured_vehicle_pictures_information_desc.html - cited by this page as a reference)

Demand keeps it that way because they are so expensive and rare. Some of these weapons are available from South American countries in large quantities for a fraction of the cost, and the buyer doesn't have to pay for a NICS check. To think that wealthy cartels are spending $1,000 apiece for a semi auto Colt AR15, or $14,000 for a AK-47 in the US after a NICS check when they could easily fly to Cuba in one of their many private planes and purchase RPGs, grenades, and AK-47 in large quantities for $150 apiece just doesn't hold water.

I again argue that the source of most of these weapons are the estimated 150,000 Mexican soldiers that have deserted their post in recent years, and not from the dreaded US gun show. I also note that this page claims that an estimated 2,000 guns are smuggled into Mexico from the US each day, which would represent well over one quarter of all firearms sold in the US daily. It's pretty obvious that that's not accurate, to put it nicely. CTone (talk) 17:17, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

"I again argue that the source of most of these weapons are the estimated 150,000 Mexican soldiers that have deserted their post in recent years", i think that you have to state from what source do you get that number and also especify in what time period those soldiers defected from the mexican army, and also if all of those 150,000 troops are from the army it self or from other security and military corporations in mexico, because if this number is from and only from the mexican army and from the official timeline(well at least within the limits of this article), when the drug war started, it would mean that the mexican army has no soldiers, and it has lost more soldiers that it actually has between its ranks, so you should check that info. Also i do agree with you that the mexican officials have manipulated public oppinion in to thinking that the US is the mayor provider of weapons to the mexican drug cartels in order to avoid responsibility and accountabillity to its own public. User: Megatherion 12:43, 20 January 2010. (Megatherion (talk) 20:01, 20 January 2010 (UTC))

The Mexican military (specifically the Marina)and police have both used weapons in the M16/M4 family. Indeed, you can see a federal police officer with one in this recent photo. [1]. That said, evidence indicates that most of the AR-15s that end up in the hands of Mexican traffickers are semi-automatic and originated in the U.S. rather than obtained from Mexican authorities. In the 1980s and 1990s it was more difficult for criminals in Mexico to obtain weapons from the U.S. and if they had any assault weapons they were more likely stolen from Mexican authorities. Those days are gone and it is now quite easy to get them from the U.S. The same is true with regard to the AK-family of weapons as they are easily purchased in the U.S., just visit the online gun stores such as Centerfire Systems, Gilberts Guns, Buds Guns, and J&G Sales and you will see what I mean (of course their stock was cleaned out a bit in November). These rifles are normally semi-automatic, but some of them can be converted using relatively inexpensive parts. However, it appears that most traffickers do not even bother to convert the rifles as they are essentially disposable, and are quite effective anyway. Not home (talk) 17:53, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Interesting claims regarding the type and price of weapons, but you bring forth no references. Nobody claims that the confiscated AK-47 were original 1947 Moscou manufacture (maybe those are worth $14,000 USD. I don't know). The seized AK-47s are of USA manufacture and are the same type the USA is providing to the police forces in Irak: If you can read Spanish or have access to an online translator, take a look at this investigative article. It is shown that AK-47s are available in Mexico (black market) starting at only $150 USD. -BatteryIncluded (talk) 18:36, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

There are no references showing that the AK-47s seized from the cartels are US manufactured. Where is this evidence? The link provided on this page for the AK-47 (reference 36) shows prices for semi-auto AK-47 copies that are sold in the US for around $600 - $700, which I can tell you are current prices, and that's not including the alledged $100 dollars that the cartels pay for some turncoat US citizen to buy the thing after paying a $20 NICS fee, but you're saying that they are available on the Mexican black market for $150. I'm not an economics major but that just doesn't add up. The prices that I am talking about are for the full auto weapons and destructive devices that the ATF and Mexican government are claiming that the cartels are using and are well known as being standard issue to either Mexican soldiers or former soviet nations such as Cuba. These weapons are available to some extent in the US, but are hard to find because of heavy regulation (NFA - http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/nfa.htm ) and are very expensive due to the FOPA cutting supply and running up demand ( http://www.hardylaw.net/FOPA.html ). Here are current prices for a transferable AK-47 - http://www.gunsamerica.com/976917455/Guns/Rifles/AK-47-Rifles/Folding-Stock/Polytech_AK47_7_62_FULL_AUT.htm / http://www.johnsvtgunshop.com/class3f-frame.html - $18,000 to $25,000; M60 Machine Gun such as the one that this ATF agent is claiming are being smuggled fromt he US into Mexico - http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4684540 - how about $35,000 - http://www.klomont.com/transmg.htm ; how about the M2 Browning Machine Gun - $24,000 - http://www.gunsamerica.com/948961149/Guns/Rifles/Class-3-Rifles/Class-3-Any-Other-Weapon/Browning_M_2_50_BMG.htm - although the last link has them for $65,000. We're talking $3,500 for a M203 - http://www.klomont.com/dd.htm . And good luck finding a M72 LAW or an RPG with an active rocket, and I'm not even going to get into finding grenades. This is all available after you find a buyer and jump through the NFA hoops ( http://arizonagunlist.com/How_to_buy_NFA_class3_weapons_with_a_revocable_living_trust_without_a_CLEO_signoff.html ) to get the paperwork (three months at the least). There is no denying that semi auto ARs and such are making there way into Mexico from the US, but only in small amounts. Why would cartels pay $600 - $1,000 for a semi-auto rifle that is contingent upon payment for some idiot to do paperwork on and then risk smuggling it into the country when they could order truckloads of full auto AK-47s from a country like Cuba or Columbia for $50 apiece and have them flown right into their hands? Where do you think they're getting RPGs, mines, mortars, and grenades from? Cuba, China, Russia, Columbia or a whole host of other countries who practically give them away for next to nothing. The cartels have an estimated 100,000 strong army, and you honestly think that their going to wait for the next gun show so they can buy an inferior weapon for five times the price and ten times the risk. Armies that size are armed by willing host nations, not US gun shops. CTone (talk) 23:34, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

The published reports by the FBI, ATF and DEA disgree with your opinion. BatteryIncluded (talk) 01:22, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

PS: due to its durability, low production cost and ease of use, the AK-47 remains the most widely used assault rifle in the world - so much so that more AK-type rifles have been produced than all other assault rifles combined. (Reference: AK-47). So much for your expensive and rare asumption.

????? Not to be a pest, but can you please cite? I have been following this subject for almost a year now, and I am not the only one raising the flag on this. I respect Wikipedia because the information can be discussed and vetted by all who see it, and this specific subject has a direct impact on laws here in the US, so please don't fault me for seeking correctness. You asked for references and I produced, and I can say that I have read tons of information from the ATF, DEA, and others, as well as mainstream media outlets (especially so) and they have discredited themselves with their own words. I have many clear references. I translated the page you linked to and it clearly reaffirms what I've been saying about the AK-47: it says that semi-auto copies can be purchased for about $300 dollars from the US, and then converted to full auto which costs about $200 per rifle, but that foreign full auto AK-47s are already available in Mexico for $150 (So I was off by $100 on the full auto AKs, but I'm used to Iraq prices). The article itself explains the manufacture, availability, and ease of acquisition and maintenance of foreign AKs - not US copies - and states that the US "acquired AK-47s for the Iraqi Police," not that it manufactured them. I can assure you from my own eyes that Iraqi Police are armed with full auto AK-47s, not the varients found here from companies such as Arsenal. None of this discredits, or even challenges, the information I gave on mines, anti-tank rockets, grenades, machine guns, or any of the other weapons that are not available here, are not acknowledged by any "report" from any US government agency, but have had substantial evidence published about being readily available from South American countries. CTone (talk) 02:52, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Did I not see that Wikipedia is not a reference? I note that production cost has no impact whatsoever with the selling cost. Russia can mass produce AK-47s for pennies apiece, but this will not make the prices go down in the US because AK-47 imports are very restricted. That's US law ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968. ) The quantity of full auto AKs we have here in the states are essentially frozen. "Private ownership of fully automatic AK-pattern rifles is strictly regulated by the National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934. The Gun Control Act of 1968 ceased the import of foreign-manufactured fully automatic firearms for civilian sales and possession." -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47_legal_status#In_the_United_States CTone (talk) 02:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to narrow this down as it seems that you are confusing several different things. Let's get down to some facts:

Fact: Drug cartels are in an open war against the Mexican government.

Fact: the Mexican government is claiming that these cartels are using select fire automatic weapons, M2 Browning Machine Guns, anti-tank rockets, mortars, grenades, mines, and to some extent pistols. [2]

Fact: The ATF claims that the cartels are using M60s [3] and grenades purchased in Central America [4].

Fact: Virtually every story regarding "US weapons fueling Mexican drug war" originates from ATF Special Agent Bill Newell[5] in Phoenix, AZ

Fact: ATF agent Bill Newell claims that for a cartel member to get a full auto belt fed M60, "it's as easy as crossing the border." [6]

Fact: In the US the M60 is regulated by the National Firearms Act, the Gun Control Act of 1968, and by the Firearm Owners Protection Act.

Fact: The market price of approx $35,000 [7] for a genuine M60 in the US has nothing at all to do with the manufacturing price at U.S. Ordnance.

Fact: Agent Newell did arrest a cartel member who tried to purchase a genuine full auto M60 for $30,000 in the US. [8]

Fact: Select fire automatic weapons are heavily regulated in the US by the National Firearms Act, Gun Control Act of 1968, and Firearm Owners Protection Act.

Fact: The estimated 75 million genuine Russian AK-47 rifles in worldwide circulation are of select fire type, capable of automatic fire. (AK-47) This does not take into account the remaining 425 million select fire copies of the AK-47 in worldwide circulation.

Fact: The Gun Control Act of 1968 stopped the importation of genuine select fire AK-47s in 1968, thus locking the number of available rifles at whatever quantity it was at that year in the US.

Fact: The manufacturing price of genuine select fire AK-47s has absolutely no impact whatsoever of US market price of said weapons as they have not been imported since 1968.

Fact: The semi-auto copies of AK-47s that are in the US are imported from foreign countries, and are subject to US importation laws that regulate them by a points system [9]

Fact: The going rate for semi auto AK-47s in the US is about $700 [10] and the going rate for genuine select fire AK-47s is about $18,000 [11]

Fact: The going rate of a genuine select fire AK-47 on the global market is around $100. [12]

Fact: The AK-47s that the US bought from Jordan and gave to Iraq were genuine select fire weapons', so I agree with your claim that they are of the same type being seized in Mexico: select fire automatic rifles, and not the castrated semi auto rifles that are legall here in the US. [13] —Preceding unsigned comment added by CTone (talk • contribs) 15:12, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Fact: Genuine select fire AK-47s are the standard arm of Chile, Cuba, Honduras, Nicaragua, and Panama.

Fact: The M2 Browning Machine Gun is the standard arm of Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Columbia, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Jamaica, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Uraguay, and Venezuela. [14]

Fact: The M60 Machine Gun is the standard arm of Chile, Bolivia, Columbia, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Haiti, Honduras, Nicaragua, and Panama. [15]

Fact: Mexico imported 200,000 various small arms from Venezuela in 2003 and 100,000 various small arms from Israel in 2004 [16]

Fact: The mainstream media knows nothing about firearms or small arms, so they cannot be relied upon for accurate reference.

I think you get the point, right? There is no dispute that semi auto small arms are making their way from the US into Mexico in quantity, but the accusation that 90% are coming from the US, and 10% are coming from elseware is flatly wrong. I offer compelling evidence that it is probably the other way around - 10% 90%, and that it is logical to believe that Mexican drug cartels are buying weapons from South American countries that are undeniably unobtainable in the US. You can argue with me on AK-47s all you want - it's pretty obvious that you are not knowledgeable in them, to say nothing about your knowledge of US firearm laws - but my references on US firearm regulations driving market prices are not my "assumptions." This is indisputable fact. And quite frankly, you cannot provide even a meek argument that the hand grenades, belt fed machine guns, mines, mortars, rocket lauchers, or any of the other weapons are coming from the US. Again, that is not my "assumption," it is cold hard fact. They are not available here. CTone (talk) 14:44, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

If you publish your theories contradicting the FBI, ATF and DEA in a reputable publication, you'll get a decent shot. BatteryIncluded (talk) 22:03, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

What FBI, ATF, DEA information are you talking about?!?! You haven't provided anything but one link to a Spanish news report, and one to Wikipedia!! I'll "get a decent shot"!?!?!? Is this the kind of reasoned public discourse that one can expect from Wikipedia? I have provided many citations in this forum and you haven't bothered to read a single one; and you haven't contributed anything at all!

Since it's too hard for you to read plain text, I will spell it out for you on the lowest level possible.

On the introduction to this page that you are editing it says "The Mexican cartels commonly use automatic rifles, handheld grenades, and a variety of other military caliber arms smuggled into Mexico from the U.S." - but you cite no sources (I know, you read it in the news).

Under the title "Progress and Escalation" it says "The rival cartels are using not only handguns, but automatic weapons such as variants of the AK-47 and AR-15[29] purchased in the United States." - and it cites a short LA Times article that does not mention AK-47s or AR-15s (reference 29), and it cites a Townhall article written by Chuck Norris that is completely void of any mention of firearms (reference 30). Those sources are bunk, and that is a fact.

Under "Mexican Cartels" it says "The cartels utilize grenade launchers, automatic weapons, body armor and sometimes, Kevlar helmets." - no citation.

Now, there are significant problems with the accuracy of those claims. From the National Firearms Act [17]

§ 5845. Definitions -- (b) Machinegun. -- The term "machinegun" means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

(f) Destructive device. -- The term "destructive device" means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) mine, or (F) similar device;

§ 5811. Transfer tax -- (a) Rate. -- There shall be levied, collected, and paid on firearms transferred a tax at the rate of $200 for each firearm transferred, except, the transfer tax on any firearm classified as any other weapon under section 5845(e) shall be at the rate of $5 for each such firearm transferred.

This means that to buy or own a machine gun (automatic weapon) or a destructive device (grenade) after the passage of this law (passed June 26, 1934) you have to pay for a $200 tax stamp from the Treasury for each one, and that is after they are registered into a government database.

From the Gun Control Act of 1968: http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/gca.htm

(4) The term "destructive device" means -- (A) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas -- (i) bomb, (ii) grenade, (iii) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces, (iv) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (v) mine, or (vi) device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding clauses;

(23) The term "machinegun" has the meaning given such term in section 5845(b) of the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. 5845(b)).

(28) The term "semiautomatic rifle" means any repeating rifle which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge.

(l) Except as provided in section 925(d) of this chapter, it shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to import or bring into the United States or any possession thereof any firearm or ammunition; and it shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been imported or brought into the United States or any possession thereof in violation of the provisions of this chapter.

(o)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun.(2) This subsection does not apply with respect to -- (A) a transfer to or by, or possession by or under the authority of, the United States or any department or agency thereof or a State, or a department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or (B) any lawful transfer or lawful possession of a machinegun that was lawfully possessed before the date this subsection takes effect.

This US law freezes the importation of machine guns (automatic weapons), except to the US government, at the date of the enactment of this law (October 22, 1968)

These two laws are why American citizens overwhelmingly buy Semi-auto rifles, because the supply of automatic weapons (and grenades) stopped on October 22, 1968, thus making them expensive and rare. Those of us who buy and sell firearms in the US know this as common fact, but you confuse semi auto rifles with automatic rifles (a common mistake) and that skews your understanding of the subject. You cited earlier a Wikipedia entry on the AK-47 that said they were inexpensive to manufacture, but those weapons are NOT being imported into the US, so that does not effect market prices on this soil.

What all this boils down to is that your uncited page is claiming that Mexican drug cartels are sneaking into the US, paying American soccer moms $100 to unknowingly straw purchase devices that have not been imported since 1968 AFTER they file a form 4 with the ATF to get the device registered in order to receive a $200 tax stamp, and then turn them over to the smugglers. That is fantasy.

What I have been saying all along, and you have not been listening, is that the Mexican cartels are getting "automatic weapons" and "grenades" from either the corrupt Mexican government (to include deserting soldiers) or foreign countries other than the US. Every citation that you have linked to it says exactly that very well, you just didn't read what was linked to in your own post.

Reference 57[18]: "According to a U.S. government intelligence report obtained by Proceso, Hamas, Hezbollah and other radical Islamic groups have become associates of the Mexican drug trafficking cartels: they are furnishing them weapons and helping them to distribute drugs in Europe and the Middle East. Ahead of time, DEA and Justice Department officials told this weekly that "in coming days" they will conduct an operation in the border area shared by Brazil, Argentina and Paraguay – where the radical Islamic groups have settled – that will show their ties with the Mexican drug traffickers."

Reference 58[19]:"A US intelligence organization reports that Hamas, Hezbollah and other radical Islamic groups have joined forces with Mexican drug trafficking cartels. The Islamic groups furnish weapons and use the proceeds to finance activities that include distributing narcotics in Europe and the Mideast. They are especially active in the border area shared by Brazil, Argentina and Paraguay." "The report puts an interesting spin on the widely accepted notion that the US is providing the bulk of weapons used by the cartels. “Many of these weapons, seized from narcotics traffickers by Mexican authorities, are made in Europe or the Middle East and that they are the type used by Islamic groups that support the Palestinian cause," an NDIC official said."

Reference 59[20]:"Mexican drug cartels, Hezbollah (Party of God) and other Islamic terrorist groups are joining forces in Mexico. Hezbollah is synonymous with terror, suicide bombings, kidnappings and beheadings. No wonder the criminal organizations in Mexico seem to have adopted many Middle Eastern terrorist tactics with kidnappings and beheadings happening throughout Mexico."

There's much much more, if you care to read. I also note that references 36, 54, and 61 are bad links, and that references 37, 44, 46-49, and 53 are in Spanish, which is a pretty good indicator that this page is in need of an update.

So now I have read every citation that is linked to this page and none of them are reports from the ATF, DEA, or FBI, so I don't see what you are asking me to challenge. Almost all of them are news stories that originate in Mexico that say that the cartels are using automatic weapons (references 38, 39, 43, 45, 51, 54, 56, and 61). Others say that the cartels are using bazookas (references 39, 42, 43, 50, 51, 54), grenades (39, 43, 45, 54), and reference 39[21] is an interview with former US drug czar Gen McCaffrey who says that the Mexican cartels have submarines, encrypted radios, and helicopters that I suppose you would argue come from unscrupulous and "unlicensed gun dealers" at US gun shows. Without a background check, of course.

I have gone above and beyond to apease your unwaivering opinion that is clearly built of disinformation. Please provide some sort of attempt to address these discrepencies, and please use citations. CTone (talk) 02:26, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

---

1) The relevant citations are in the main body of the article.

2) If the smugglers follow the law, they wouldn't be smugglers.

3) Some additional U.S. Federal sourcess revealing the supply of AK-47 from USA to Mexico (infinitely more reliable than your theories), and the basis for most press reports: Project Gunrunner, ATF Report for Congress, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Embassy of the USA, and as a bonus: Trial of Phoenix gun seller, Licensed American Gun Dealers Supply US-Mexico Gun Runners - Feds, Gun Policy.org.

4) Wikipedia is not a venue to argue the 'assault weapons ban' reinstatement, so as mucha as I'd like to entertain your conversation, Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought, theories and solutions, original ideas, etc. (WP:NOTAFORUM), and particularly in this case, not a publisher of fringe theories (wp:Fringe), such as conspiracy theories, e.g: denial of the said assault rifles gun-running from USA to Mexico.

5) If you find a Federal report/source stating that AK-47s are NOT being regularly smuggled into Mexico, please include it in the article.

6) I will review the inactive links/sources you mention above. Thank you.

BatteryIncluded (talk) 06:32, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's a start. I have never mentioned anything dealing with the 'assault weapons ban'(s) reinstatement, nor have I implied such. That is projection on your part, and has nothing to do with current US Federal law, nor my argument. I merely mentioned that the discussion at hand that started from statements on this webpage have political and legal impacts within the US. That US politicians crafted clever laws to dry up the supply and keep them out of civilian hands by artificially raising the price of certain weapons is not a "theory," it is a certainty. It is irrelevant if smugglers follow the law because the issue is finding these weapons to begin with.

Again I repeat myself when I say that nothing that you provided addresses grenades, M72 LAW, M2 HMGs, RPGs, mortars, submarines, helicopters, or any of the other weapons that are cited by your page that you crafted or in the main body. And you didn't seem to catch that the cites that I pointed to above (my "theories") are the very links that you have relied upon for accuracy. I have also cited ATF.gov (not "infinitely reliable?"), usdoj.gov (not "infinitely reliable?"), and relied on your vetted and approved information to make my case; that was not an accident.

Now, I took the time to read through the cites that you have just posted, and I would like to point out - from page 11 of the CRS report for Congress (the one that you just cited) - "The DTO’s, however, are reportedly buying semiautomatic versions of AK-47 and AR-15-style assault rifles, other military style firearms, and .50 caliber sniper rifles in the United States.29" - this is exactly what I am talking about. "Semiautomatic AK-47 and AR-15" rifles are not the "automatic rifles" that you have claimed on this page. You can not distinguish the difference between the two because you are not knowledgeable in small arms, and thus are not understanding in the significance. And again, none of those cites give any mention to hand grenades, or even the M249 SAW that you have as a caption on the page.

I never denied that "semiauto" "AK type rifles"[22] are being sold to cartels from the US; indeed, the ATF has intercepted shipments of them for years, but I have given indisputable evidence that cartels are not buying "automatic rifles" and "grenades" from the US. I know the ATF has busted crooked gun dealers in the US for selling firearms to cartels; again, undeniable, but they are selling semiauto rifles and pistols, and from your own cited page it shows the bulk of the weapons that are being smuggled are pistols[23]. Hundreds of rifles, but several thousand "cheap" pistols. I never said otherwise.

I do not aim to engage in petty arguments with you, but I do aim to engage, and I am not going to just take my ball and go home. I am very knowledgeable in this particular subject, and to avoid a meaningful discussion for the sake of accuracy of the page violates the integrity of the whole thing. You would be no less offended if you had come across a statement from me on the Star Wars page that said that Vicente Carrillo Fuentes was shot to death in a galactic strip club by Han Solo, and that Han fired first. Pretty absurd, right? The specific statements from this page that I highlighted above are no less absurd. Also, I do find it telling that you immediately bring up gun politics and try to pin that on me when I am just pointing out inaccuracies that you wrote on this page and refute them with your own links.

So, for clarity, my direct question to you is where is there proof that cartels are buying "automatic weapons" like the M249 SAW (in the picture on this page), and destructive devices; specifically the M72 LAW and hand grenades (also in the picture) in the US? And P.S. - one large shipment of grenades intercepted by the ATF in the US is covered in one very good article that you already have linked to, but it didn't originate from here, and so they were not purchased here. CTone (talk) 13:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

---

I suggest we use a table to clarify the issue of origin. -- In my opinion, the best way to clarify the sources for each of the weapon types utilized by the drug traffickers would be to create a table in the article. Maybe something like the one I threw together here in the talk page. The first column would list each of the weapons, the second column would list the primary source for the weapon (along with the reference). This way, readers could clearly see where each weapon comes from. Something similar to this...

Weapon	Primary Source
AK variants (semi-auto)	United States
AK variants (select-fire AK-47, AKM)	Central America, South America, Middle East, Africa, Central Asia, South Asia, East Asia[24] [25]
AR-15 (semi-auto)	United States
M16/M4 (select-fire)	Mexican Military
Fragmentation grenades M61/M67/MK II/K400	Mexican Military[26], United States, Central America, South Korea,[27], Israel, Spain, Soviet bloc, Guatemala[28], Vietnam[29] Unknown[30][31],
RPG/M72 LAW	Asia, Central America/Guatemala[32]
M72/M79/M203 Grenade launchers	Unknown[33][34] [35]
.50 caliber Barrett M82A1	United States[36],[37][38], Mexico[39]
Improvised Explosive Devices	United States[40]
M2 Browning HMG	Vietnam[41]

Of course, it can be modified as needed. Those are my thoughts on the matter. What do you blokes think? Not home (talk) 21:12, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Now CTone is assuming that this article has political repercusions. Please note we are not some kind of Federal comittee member nor are we drafting an official report to be used for legislation. Think if you have a dog in this fight or if you simply want a precise and well-referenced Wikipedia article. I wll not accept denial of most weapons (90% - stated by the feds of Mex & USA) smuggled from the USA, even if they are hand guns. We could itemize long guns and short guns introduced from USA if that brings richness to the article.

Assuming good faith, I will appreciate CTone desire for accuracy and will continue to work on that spirit.

Your links in the discussion above may be the same as in the article, but the conclusions differ, let's work out the relevant issues. Here, we must avoid using weasel words )wp:weasel) and be honestly informative. The weapons are so easy to convert to automatic that I have not payed attention, so if you wish to change automatic AK-47 for semiautomatic AK-47, that seems quite fair. Regarding the weapons table suggested by Not at Home, I think it is a fantastic addition and we all should work on it taking special care of reputable sources/references for each item. In this context, the word "origin" can be used (or misused) as a "manufacturer" or "seller", so we should illustrate at least the 'manufacturer' and 'introduction manner', or 'borders used' to avoid confusion of fabrication vs. supply.

Regarding the true military hardware, there have been no classic Rocket-propelled grenades seized or used; it is the 'grenade launchers that the media calls RPG (manufacturers? introduction manner?). The reference is the image by the Mexican feds of the seized grenade lunchers.

There are no land mines in this conflict.

I ignore the manufacturer of the hand grenades or its introduction route; that is certainly an item not for sale at gun shows and it is being widely used now in Mexico, so it should be a priority to find out and include info about their origin and introduction manner to Mexico. BatteryIncluded (talk) 00:28, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Excellent. I have come across several reports of the RPG-7s used, but I will look through my material to see if I can find solid evidence. From a link already on the page it addresses a grenade shipment passing through the US that originated from Vietnam; I will relocate that information to reaffirm, but it is undeniable that cartels have been using them. As far as heavy machine guns, M60s, M72 LAW, and other true military hardware, I would like to reaffirm that they're being used in Mexico by the cartels (lots of good citations on their use) and post it, but it is obvious that they are not being purchased at US gun shows by civilians. It may very well be that they are being smuggled into Mexico via the US by cartels (US ports are notoriously unsecure), but this would be an underground blackmarket, not a civilian operation. I will look for solid proof and post it in this discussion page for all to see. I'm all for the weapons table suggested by Not at Home, and I'll add to the fields. CTone (talk) 15:20, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely. Grenades, grenade launchers and RPGs are not available at U.S. gun shops and gun shows for civilians. I don't know the legalities for the 50 caliber guns. In the case of such weapons, I agree we need to state they are being smuggled into Mexico via the US, not sold there. I am also interested in references of which weapons are smuggled in from Asia, south america, etc. As i mentioned, there is no official report about RPGs, it is only the press (local papers) and in cases that grenade launchers have been used. Not one RPG has been displayed or reported by the cops/army. Cheers. BatteryIncluded (talk) 23:36, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The M2 HMG is a regulated item here; you can own one, but the paperwork and the price are substantial, and the availability is not so great. Just about every Central and South American country uses them as they have bought them from the US govt, and the weapon has been around for almost a century. I am still tracking down information from sources, and will be putting it up in this forum for the next couple of days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CTone (talk • contribs) 12:27, 16 March 2009 (UTC) CTone (talk) 16:24, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

That table is taking shape. Regarding the the 'expensive' or military weapons, lets remember the mexican dope smugglers make a reported $20 Billion USD per year, so cost has never been a problem. Regardless of the regulations, it is evident they are available in the black market. An other weapon of interest is the 0.50 caliber Barret; I'll try to find the references of seisures. Regarding the hand grenades, I have been told they are M-67; I have to look into it.BatteryIncluded (talk) 16:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The Barrett rifles are manufactured in the US, and they probably purchased plenty here, but I do note that the Mexican Army has bought lots of them as well[42] [43]. Chicago Tribune and LA Times are reporting that "military grade" weapons (hand grenades, grenade launchers, armor-piercing munitions and antitank rockets specifically) are being smuggled from Central America.[44] [45]

"Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semiauto- matic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California." "These groups appear to be taking advantage of a robust global black market and porous borders, especially between Mexico and Guatemala. Some of the weapons are left over from the wars that the United States helped fight in Central America, U.S. officials said.

The US sold tens of thousands of M16s to Central America in the 1980's, and those have been filtering into Mexico for a long time:[46]

"Situated in the southern part of the country, Mexico's leftist rebel armies appear to be getting their arms principally from enormous stores left over from the Central American wars of the 1980s. Many of those arms were, of course, supplied by Washington, too, either through massive military aid programs or as part of covert government operations."

And grenades and M2 HMGs have made their way from Vietnam.[47] CTone (talk) 17:47, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

You blokes are doing a good job filling in the table. I will add references as well, but have been busy with some other issues lately. When do you plan to pull the table over into the actual article? Not home (talk) 12:29, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

---

I believe this is noteworthy. The Mexican Army intercepted a large shipment of weapons near Rancho Anapra (31°46′29.79″N 106°33′59.22″W), Chihuahua. It includes a wide variety of weapons, many of which appear to be from the U.S. However, the article does not explicity state their origin. Several of the vehciles had U.S. plates. Here is the link - . It probably needs some analysis. Here is the list provided by the army. I suspect the explosives and the grenades did not come from the U.S.

• Armamento
• 1 Rifle calibre .22, marca REMINGTON, modelo 522, matrícula 3048097.
• 1 Rifle calibre 22-250, marca REMINGTON, modelo 788, matrícula 6011666.
• 1 Carabina calibre 7.62, sin marca, modelo 1903, matrícula A2442.
• 1 Escopeta calibre 12, marca WINCHESTER, modelo DEFENDER, matrícula L1850425.
• 1 Fusil calibre 7.62x39, marca NORINCO, sin modelo, matrícula 56S-151396.
• 1 Revólver calibre 38 SPECIAL, marca ilegible, sin modelo, matrícula 493365.
• 1 Rifle calibre .17, marca THE MARLIN FIRE ARMS, modelo 917V, matrícula 9364809.
• 1 Carabina calibre 9 mm, marca RUGER, modelo STURM, matrícula 470-01088.
• 1 Fusil calibre 7.62X39, marca IVER-JOHNSON’S, sin modelo, matrícula AA 1597.
• 1 Rifle calibre 30-30, marca WINCHESTER, modelo 94, matrícula 3781967.
• 1 Pistola calibre .380, marca RAIKAL, modelo ilegible, matrícula J044928.
• 1 Revólver calibre .22, marca RUGER, modelo SINGLE-SIX, matrícula 261-67268.
• 1 Fusil calibre .223, marca BUSHMASTER, modelo XM15-E25, matrícula BFI406376.
• 1 Rifle calibre 30-30, marca THE MARLIN FIREARMS, modelo 30-A, matrícula 26047155.
• 1 Rifle calibre .22, marca THE MARLIN FIREARMS, modelo 882L, matrícula 98601918.
• 1 Revólver calibre .22, marca WESTERN SIX, sin modelo, matrícula K44236.
• 1 Pistola calibre .25, marca TITáN, sin modelo, matrícula ED82215.
• 1 Pistola calibre .22, marca JENNINGS, modelo J-22, matrícula 532785.
• 1 Fusil calibre .223, marca PWA, modelo COMMANDO, matrícula 25731.
• 1 Fusil calibre 7.62X39, marca NORINCO, modelo MAK-90 SPORTER, matrícula 9497310.
• 1 Revólver calibre 38 SPECIAL, marca SMIT & WESSON, modelo 10-8, matrícula AYS9943.
• 1 Pistola calibre .380, marca GRENDEL INC., modelo P10, sin matrícula.
• 1 Carabina calibre 7.62, marca OVIEDO, sin modelo, matrícula U1703.
• 1 Fusil calibre 7.62X39, marca NORINCO, sin modelo, matrícula 10188543.
• 1 Rifle calibre 30-30, marca THE MARLIN FIRE ARMS, modelo 336, matrícula 19006922.
• 1 Fusil calibre 5.56 mm, marca REL-TEC, modelo PLR-16, matrícula P1R02.
• 1 Fusil calibre .308, marca J.L.D.INTERPRISES INC., modelo PTR-91, matrícula S.N. A6547.
• 1 Pistola calibre .25, marca RAVEN, modelo P25, matrícula 368681.

• Cargadores
• 4 cargadores de disco para calibre 7.62 x 39 mm.
• 53 cargadores para calibre 7.62 x 39 mm.
• 1 cargador de doble disco para calibre .223
• 13 cargadores para calibre.223.
• 3 cargadores para calibre .308
• 24 cargadores para pistola de diferentes calibres.

• Explosivos
• 47 metros de mecha lenta.
• 34 explosivos tipo salchicha TOVEX.
• 4 kilos 500 gramos de agente explosivo granulado.

• Granadas
• 3 granadas de fragmentación.

Another source contains more info about the vehicles.

• 1 Camioneta, Marca ISUZO, Línea TROOPER, color gris, año 1992, placas de circulación 671-PAY del Estado de Colorado, U.S.A., numero de serie: JACDH58V4P7904523 (CON REPORTE DE ROBO).
• 1 Camioneta Marca JEEP, Línea GRAND CHEROKEE, color gris, año 2001, sin placas de circulación, numero de serie 1J4GW48521C7135661 (CON REPORTE DE ROBO).
• 1 Camioneta Marca FORD, Línea EXPEDITION, color blanco, año 2000, sin placas de circulación, numero de serie 1FMPU16L9YLB73354 (CON REPORTE DE ROBO).
• 1 Camioneta Marca CHEVROLET, Línea TAHOE, color negra, año 2005 placas de circulación Y64-YRR del estado de TEXAS, USA., numero de serie 1GNEC13T85R108045 (CON REPORTE DE ROBO).
• 1 Camioneta Marca JEEP, Línea CHEROKEE, color gris, año 2004, placas de circulación GDF-282 del estado de TEXAS, USA, numero de serie 1J8GW68J54C278340 (CON REPORTE DE ROBO).

Not home (talk) 16:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

That's good info. Somewhere I came across the translation to the weapons you listed above. I've been hung up with home issues, but I am currently skimming over this 500+ page picture thread - http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101145 - and came across this on page 498 "They captured 26 members of the Arrellano Felix Cartel in a party in Tijuana, they also captured 1 state police officer who is a bodyguard of the govenor, 1 police officer de Ministrial, ex policeofficer de ministrial, ex police officers of Tijuana and Rosarito."

There are so many different types of weapons I don't even know where to begin. I saw an M2 BHMG on page 497, a Browning 1919 GPMG and M60 on page 493, a ton of Barretts and ARs/AKs (can't tell if they're select fire or not), lots of 40mm grenades to feed the many M203s. On the upside, the Mexican military is very well equiped, and look to be badass as well. I do note that the police and the military have MK 19 Automatic Grenade Launchers. There are a bunch of cites in this thread to tell where these weapons are coming from, so I will be checking this out tonight. CTone (talk) 21:54, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Good find!. I'llbe busy tonight and tomorrow so I can't research but will drop by. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 00:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that is a great visual source of the equipment and weapons utilized by Mexican authorities. Not home (talk) 00:48, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Armed assailants attacked several police stations in the State of Mexico yesterday morning in an attempt to make off with weapons, ammunition, uniforms, and vehicles. I will get more details. Not home (talk) 13:19, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Yesterday sixty-five US House Democrats signed a letter to US AG Holder pledging opposition to a new assault thingy ban[48], and in it the Dems talk about the drug war in Mexico:

"It is hard to believe the ban would be any more effective in controlling crime by well-funded international drug traffickers, who regularly use grenade launchers, anti-tank rocket launchers and other weapons that are not available on the civilian market in th eUnited States."

There's some other stuff in there, but that paragraph respects the issue here. In other news: a couple of things I saw in that picture thread on militaryphotos.com is MK II and M61 grenades and a custom chrome H&K MP5 that were seized with the capture of Santiago Meza Lopez. There's also a M16 (Vietnam era/select fire) on page 435 seized during an arrest; an Interdynamic KG-9, M60 GPMG, M16s (select fire), MP5s, SBRs, and an UZI - on page 428; a couple more 1919 Browning machine guns (WWII era!) around page 418, and last, some mortar rounds on page 406. There is nothing that notes the country of origin, but I know that those weapons are hard to get in the US. I saw a bare bones H&K MP5 at a gun show in Virginia this weekend and it went for $16,500. There are more AK-47 type weapons than I care to count on that thread, but it's impossible to tell if they are select fire or not. I'm going to focus more on putting info into the table. CTone (talk) 14:08, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I have lots of info today. First is a statement to the US Congress from ATF Special Agent Bill Newell about a "spike in .50-caliber machine guns heading south,” and a statement from the National Security & Foreign Affairs Subcommittee Chairman John Tierney from the same document says “Thousands of automatic rifles are bought for export to Mexico, which is illegal.”[49] These statements are patently untrue, and they are also misleading because the ".50 caliber weapon" that Agent Newell points out is a Barrett M82A1, which is a semi-automatic rifle, not a machine gun. I see Mr. Tierney as discredited, as well as Special Agent Newell. I also note that Agent Newell is the sole source of virtually every news article on this subject in the last two years, and many of the cites on this page come from his statements.

Next, I have a statement from NRA Executive Director of the Institute for Legislative Action Chris Cox to Congress which says that the shoulder fired grenade launchers and anti-tank rockets are smuggled from Guatamala, and also discusses the Mexican governments failure to provide serial numbers from weapons seizures to the ATF.[50] Just to show that I am capable of researching the opposition to my arguement, I give you the testimony of Violence Policy Center's Senior Policy Analyst Tom Diaz to the US Congress.[51] He has done a great deal research, and notes that the rifles seized on their way to Mexico from the US are semi-auto, but he fails to mention any part of the drug cartels use of military weapons like grenades, machine guns, etc.

Last is a news article from yesterday which announces the mid trial dismissal of all charges against George Iknadosian, owner of X-Caliber Guns.[52] He would be the only guy on federal charges for illegal arms dealing that I know of. CTone (talk) 17:50, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I think the the table has been researched enough to be posted now; of course it will be expanded/modified as new referenced data is uncovered. I will work tonight in the correct reference format.

Regarding Cox's statement on the failure to provide serial numbers from weapons seizures to the ATF, it directly contradicts the purpose and existence of the ATF Project Gunrunner. I am sure that sharing such intelligence has been extremely limited in the past, but since 2005, eTrace weapon tracking system (English and later: Spanish version) have been established in Mexico so that the Mexican government shares weapons' serial nbs. directly with the ATF.[53] Since 2008, eTrace was deployed to several U.S. consulates in Mexico. In fact the, "number one" problem President Calderon has established to President Obama is to cooperate and share inteligence so that the U.S. increases its efforts/efficiency at inderdicting gun smuggling from U.S. to Mexico. Also, such intelligence-sharing is a component of the already signed Mérida Initiative. Of particular interest is this other reference from William Hoover, Assistant DIrector for Field Operations, ATF. BEFORE THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE (February 7, 2008): [54]. Significant data sharing has been going on for the last 3 years: "In FY 2007 alone, approximately 1,112 guns which originated in Texas, Arizona and California were submitted for tracing from Mexico. For all other U.S. States in FY 2007, approximately 435 guns were submitted for tracing from Mexico." So there it is, the ATF acknowledges that Mexico is actively providing the ATF with serial numbers from weapons seizures.

I inserted in the table an very reliable additional reference from the group Stratfor of fragmentation hand grenades being smuggled from South Korea. Good job all! Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 21:51, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I transferred the table and formated the references. Since this table is a team-work, it would be a nice gesture if CTone himself removes the 'Dispute' template. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 00:09, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I was out of the pocket this weekend. I would have removed it, and I'm sorry I missed the chance. I messed around on the Stratfor page for awile, but don't have login rights. I wish I had an account at Janes as well. I'll look for more stuff for the table, but it's good that it got moved to the main page. CTone (talk) 14:23, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

There was a hearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee last week titled Law Enforcement Responses to Mexican Drug Cartels[55]. In it Senator Dick Durbin questions ATF Deputy Director for Field Operations Bill Hoover on the quantity of weapons entering Mexico from the US:

Durbin - "What do you think is the volume of weapons being smuggled into Mexico from the United States on a daily basis?"

Hoover - "I would not say it's in the thousands sir. I would say it's probably in the hundreds."[56]

That's a blow to the Mexican government's declared quantity. On the subject of military weapons, Senator Fiengold questions Agent Hoover, as well as ICE Deputy Director of Investigations Kumor Kibble about where they are coming from, and they chose to punt to another hearing, but not before they say this:

Feingold - "I was deeply troubled to learn that the vast majority of weapons. . come from the United States, and that the Mexican cartels are increasingly smuggling military equipment that cannot legally be sold to civilians in either country. Would you please describe the primary source for such weapons?"

Hoover - ". .as far as military firearms sir, we have had fewer than, I believe, a dozen traces that go back to military firearms. Now we have had. . some military. . United States originated military instruments such as grenades that have ended up with the cartels."

Kibble - "We do have some investigations that have indicated that those weapons may be diverted from other regions, and not necessarily coming directly from the US."[57]

I will try to find the transcripts on the military weapons hearing, and when I do can we please please please add something on the main page noting that military weapons are acquired by the cartels through the huge supply of arms left over from the wars in Central America? I enthusiastically note that Hoover's testimony before Congress the other day[58] says "according to ATF’s National Tracing Center, 90 percent of the weapons that could be traced were determined to have originated from various sources within the U.S." Makes sense considering real AK-47s lack serial numbers to begin with, so how can these weapons be traced to a country where they aren't made? CTone (talk) 16:17, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

---

Here is the most comprehensive report on weapons smuggling in Mexico that I have come across.[59] This article verifies, with references, that the cartels are getting military weapons from the corrupt Mexican gorvernment which originated from legitimate arms sales between the US and Mexico, as well as weapons from Central America. Here's a taste:

Following is a sample of the types of arms shipments approved for export to Mexico through the DCS (Direct Commercial Sales) program during fiscal years 2006 and 2007 alone:

• $3.3 million worth of ammunition and explosives, including ammunition-manufacturing equipment;

• 13,000 nonautomatic and semiautomatic firearms, pistols and revolvers at a total value of $11.6 million;

• 42 grenade launchers valued at $518,531;

• 3,578 explosive projectiles, including grenades, valued at $78,251;

• Various night-vision equipment valued at $963,201

And this:

And that corruption is not limited to Mexican law enforcement. Sources provided Narco News with a PowerPoint presentation prepared for the DEA that indicates the following:

Between Jan 2000-Dec 2006: More than 163,000 military members were criminally processed during former president Vicente Fox’s 6 years term of office. The majority of the crimes were: [the list includes abuse of power, homicide, embezzlement, kidnapping, bank robbery, illegal possession of firearms and health crimes [essentially organized crime].

Another slide in that same DEA PowerPoint presentation states that the Mexican military reported an average of 1,200 desertions per month in 2006.

Compelling? Read the whole thing. The weapons that the Mexican government are seizing from the cartels - the same ones that the ATF are "tracing back to the US" - are the same weapons that the US sold to the Mexican government. The US and Mexican governments have not been letting the public know about these arms sales, and for good reason. The ignorant public is instead fed this nonsense about cartels buying "90% of their guns from the civilian market", which so far has consisted of one gun store owner that was recently acquitted. There are huge political repercusions that will come from this when it's all said and done. I see the truth starting to come out. Can we add some of this material to the page now? CTone (talk) 16:49, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I am aware of that blog. Unfortunately, it is full of fringe theories, (Wikipedia:Fringe theories) coverups and antigovernment rhetoric under the cloak of democracy. It is a collection of editorials and opinions so it is definitely not a reliable source. It (Al Giordano's blog) proudly operates on a shoestring, he does not pay reporters nor researchers, but incorporates a kind of 'collective blog'. In a few words: The Narcosphere is a participatory, online, forum and it is not deemed reliable by Wikipedia standards because news reporting is distinct from opinion pieces. Opinion pieces are only reliable for statements as to the opinion of their authors, not for statements of fact: [60]. Here is what Wikipedia considers reliable sources: Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 18:25, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Well then, how about some FOX News?[61] It seems someone finally did some investigative journalism, and what do you know:

The fact is, only 17 percent of guns found at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to the U.S.

Do tell. So where are these automatic weapons coming from?

• The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.
• Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.
• South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.
• Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.
• The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.
• Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

And what have I been saying all along?

So why would the Mexican drug cartels, which last year grossed between $17 billion and $38 billion, bother buying single-shot rifles, and force thousands of unknown "straw" buyers in the U.S. through a government background check, when they can buy boatloads of fully automatic M-16s and assault rifles from China, Israel or South Africa?

Exactly. There's tons more there, and I'm just waiting for some more news outlets to roll up their sleeves and go find some more information. So now can we change this? Is that enough proof, or do I have to buy the both of us a plane ticket to Juarez so I can show you myself? CTone (talk) 00:24, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. Why would the USA say 90% of the guns come from USA and take responsibility for stoping such traffic if it knows it is not from USA? We already made a table that includes the explosive amo and its sources, the issue seems to be the guns (pistols rifles & assault rifles). Yes, we should include this article mentioning 17% of traceable guns. An other topic I'd like to see expanded is the "controversy" section and analysis of why the war on drugs has failed so far and why it will not succeed. BatteryIncluded (talk) 03:40, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

---

Location Alter?

I found an article about mexicaan drug cartels now in USA from this source. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090301/ts_nm/us_usa_mexico_drugs Should it be changed or do you guys want to wait until a most likely? Noneofyour (talk) 23:12, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

How about expanding the section Mexican Drug War#United States. It does have a geopolitical implication. BatteryIncluded (talk) 02:39, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Source for statement that Mexico is main supply route for cocaine to the United States?

The source currently supporting the sentence stating that Mexico is the main supply route for cocaine entering the United States says nothing about this, but rather supports the sentence's second statement that Colombia is the main producer of cocaine entering the United States. If someone could provide a source it would be greatly appreciated. --Harel Newman (talk) 01:56, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

 Done Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 02:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

What is meant by "(...) and a variety of other military caliber arms."?

What is the meaning of this ambiguous statement? Is the author suggesting that the arms are chambered for common military cartridges (308 Nato, .223/.556 etc) - or that the arms are of a caliber (quality, grade) suitable for use by a military? Drlegendre (talk) 02:50, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Need a section for the background

What causes started the increase of consumption in the US, that required to import it from overseas? What happens after the drugs cross the border into the US? Criticism to the curent strategy in fighting the war? 70.178.4.8 (talk) 06:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Hello. I think that is a topic for Drug policy of the United States. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 18:59, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Some clarification on 'Straw Purchase'

Under "Tracing" I noticed that someone wrote:

"Mexican cartels often pay U.S. citizens to purchase assault rifles or other guns at gun shops, then sell them to a cartel representative at a U.S. gun show, where no criminal background check is required and the gun sale can't be easily traced."

Just a FYI, this is a ridiculous statement. It implies that Americans can avoid doing a background check on someone that they believe to be a criminal by selling at a gun show; like there's some magical forcefield there that makes it legal. I've got some news for you, gun shows are not the only places where one can sell without a background check. If a US state allows gun shows, and most do, then a private seller can sell a gun anywhere in the state legally to another state resident without the check. You can sell a rifle at a hotel, gas station, church, peep show, your home, etc. to another resident of the state. There is no reason to go out of your way to a gun show.

Now, my question is why would someone go to a very public place in order to make an illegal sale? Perhaps it's because the news sources that are cited in references 61 - 66 (they're mislabled, btw) have told you that's where those terrorists and murderous spree killers shop for the deadly weapons that you can't actually buy here, despite it not happening all that much.

Journalists and mainstream media are so ignorant of this fact that it defies explaination. If someone can legally sell a firearm without a background check at a gunshow, then they can sell it anywhere in the state. To further point out what a bunch of idiots those in the media are, click on those references (61 - 66) to see ABC news reporters BRIAN ROSS and RICHARD ESPOSITO[62] showing a picture of a full auto M60, and chanting the "90% of the guns come from the US" line that this very page now disputes; to see the NYT article [63] showing a video flaunting Short Barreled Rifles that, gasp, "originated in the US," despite the fact that those are not available for purchase at a gun show; to see CBS TV [64] using the worn out Brookings Institution "2,000 guns a day" line, which again I point out represents over a quarter of all firearms sold in the entire US every day, all of this just being in the first three links. I point this out because it demonizes something for no reason. CTone (talk) 20:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I think you are right about the gun shows; legal exchanges between particulars can happen in any place. Although it was published in a newspaper, I will delete that, but have to leave the straw purchase part, as it is undeniably a very common practice for narcos to obtain many of their guns. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 20:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Roger that! Thanks for updating. Just for fun I thought this might interest you - http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=156820 - it's all pictures of confiscated narco weapons, and the list is getting longer. Enjoy! CTone (talk) 19:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

New study

I wonder if somebody can find the latest study quoted here: [65] and here: [66] Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 14:47, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Good afternoon. You may look at SEDENA (mexican secretary of defense website), especially this report http://www.sedena.gob.mx/pdf/ocn/18062009.pdf

You may also look at El Universal newspaper. That page seems to be regulary updated, at the left bottom, you can see "ejecutados" which gives the number of people 'executed'.

If you have problems understanding Spanish, you may consider using Apertium a free machine translation program, available on line at http://www.apertium.org/ .

I hope my reply helps. Regards --Youssef (talk) 18:43, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Hello. Yes, I am fluent in Spanish. This 2009 report by the Mexican SEDENA is quite interesting and I will be using it. Thank you. I was hoping to find as well the latest USA report quoted in the newspapers nentioned above regarding the smuggling of firearms into Mexico. Of particular interest is the conested government affirmation that about 90% of the guns seized in Mexico originate in USA. Fox news suggested it was an exagerated number but the feds seem to be sticking to it. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 20:59, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Hello. I must confess I did not read the whole CNN articles. Perhaps the GAO article on firearms can help. The reoport on firearms is available here. A summary is also available. Regards--Youssef (talk) 21:49, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

MAP: States where most of the conflict takes place, marked in red.

The map "The states where most of the conflict takes place, marked in red" has some states shown in various shades of blue, but does not indicate what the meaning of those other colors is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rob99324 (talk • contribs) 21:19, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Mexican Civil War II?

There's no sources that I can see for it, so I'm taking it off. 140.247.42.72 (talk) 00:23, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

This is not a civil war because the population does not support the drug trade. Only criminals are taking control because they are organize. But, since the people does not trust the government or the cartel, none of the fighting forces receive support. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.102.73.79 (talk) 04:01, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Vicente Calderon????

Reference #5 cites incorrectly the name of the Mexican President... I don't think it is adecuate to cite this newspaper... Since it isn´t even able to mention accurately the name of the president (the current presidente is Felipe Calderon...the former president was Vicente Fox), i don't think it can be reliable in the rest of the info.

5^ Martinez, Danny (March 19, 2009). "Vicente Calderon's drug catch-22". BC Heights. http://media.www.bcheights.com/media/storage/paper144/news/2009/03/19/Marketplace/Vicente.Calderons.Drug.Catch22-3676172.shtml. Retrieved 2009-03-24.

--Alex economist (talk) 17:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I think you are right. The page is from a unknown student organization and got the president's name wrong. I deleted the reference. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 02:17, 5 November 2009 (UTC)