Talk:Huguenots/Archive 1

Archive 1

Huguenot

Huguenots founded Bowdoin College in Maine, USA. Huguenots settled heavily in Western New England USA near Amherst. Huguenots had a significant battle in Southern France in and around Carcassonne, in the SW, from which they fled under persecution from the Guise in the 1600s. Tom Brokaw of NBC News is a Huguenot from South Dakota. As a Huguenot myself, seriously, how can any large percentage of Englishmen claim that heritage? Apparently, according to Scientific American, Celtic genes are present in 60% of Britons. What is the deal with Huguenot heritage in Britain? It seems too inaccurate for a Wikipedia Encyclopedia article. How can high school students use that datum in a term paper? I am puzzled.

McDogm Apr 28 2005 1924 est usa

From the article: Firstly one must not confuse the people "French Huguenots" (who are of French descent and whose religion is Protestant) with the name given to French Protestants as "Huguenot". The people are of French descent but the name "Huguenot" remains the subject of much debate

I'm going to need some kind of source for this comment. I'm not sure what it means, or what the implications are; and as it is, it stuck out awkardly, and so I removed it. Mkmcconn (Talk) 21:49, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Pierre Joubert

"On 31 December 1687 a band of Huguenots set sail from France to the colony at the Cape of Good Hope, South Africa. Individual Huguenots settled at the Cape of Good Hope from as early as 1671 and an organized, large scale emigration of Huguenots to the Cape of Good Hope took place during 1688 and 1689. Many of these settlers chose as their home an area called Franschhoek, Dutch for French Corner, in the present day Western Cape provice of South Africa. A large monument to commemorate the arrival of the Huguenots in South Africa was inaugurated on 7 April 1948 at Franschhoek. Many of the farms in the Western Cape province in South Africa still bear French names and there are many families, today mostly Afrikaans speaking, whose surnames bear witness to their French Huguenot ancestry. Examples of these are Joubert, du Toit, de Villiers, Theron, du Plessis and Labuschagne amongst others, which are all common surnames in present day South Africa."

Can someone please write about Pierre Joubert, who is the main proginetor or whatever of the huguenots in South Africa? My research is insufficient, but he fled from La Motte d'Aigues to the Netherlands and from there to RSA, carrying his Bible within a bread, as the legend goes. Will someone research this and write about it please? --Scotteh 21:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Dick Turpin - English highwayman

Was Dick Turpin of Huguenot ancestry? Please see Talk:Dick Turpin. --Mais oui! 19:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Hugesgenoten

In the section "Origin of the name", user Hjoab references a derivation from Huges Capet and German Not. The wrong plural of Not is cited (it should be Nöte, not Noten, which is plural of Note). Additionally, I have never heard of this derivation before. Does anyone have any references or sources that could be cited? Otherwise I suggest adding a cautionary statement about the derivation, or removing it entirely. --mililani 08:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Ficitional characters?

In the list of Huguenots in this article, Peter Griffin (a character in the cartoon Family Guy) is listed. While his character may indeed claim Huguenot ancestry, is it really appropriate to include fictional characters in this list? Perhaps a "Huguenots in popular culture" section could note this connection? Not being a Huguenot expert, I'll leave it to others to make this decision. GeoGreg 06:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Mr. Griffin is Irish Catholic. I haven't caught every episode and he might have temporarily claimed to be a Huguenot. But I don't know for sure. Regardless it doesn't fit in the section. Johnsonrlp 16:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Early emigrations: massacre story

The account of the Ft. Caroline massacre, on this page, attributes it to the action of "the Pope", and sounds like a stereotypical inter-confessional atrocity story (cf. Black legend). In contrast, the page Ft. Caroline describes the massacre as carried out by the Spanish after a storm thwarted a French raid attempt on the St. Augustine colony. If the shocking charge of Church involvement in a massacre cannot be substantiated, it should be removed. Chonak 01:35, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I commented out the unsourced material and replaced it with a summary of the account from Fort Caroline#History. Chonak 01:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

If it is perfectly true that huguenot are "historically known" as calvinist, the way historians produce knowledge is then definitly biaised with anachronic ways of naming. We must consider that no french huguenot would answer to his interpellation as calvinist, exactly as well as no elizabethan puritan would ever answer at the name of anglican. They certainly would have react to the insult. In very extreme cases they would face catholic repression together with a follower of Jean Calvin and his augustinian beliefs, if ever theologian were on battle fields during this repression. Huguenot is the popular face of french protestantism, that has an aristocratic face, and a clerical one, the three being very different. Exactly the same way that you cannot put altogether puritans, the high church of England, and Francis Bacon in the same bag, english protestantism. Huguenots are the earliest manifestation of protestantism, their "chansons spirituelles" spiritual songs are heard in the streets, discretly hummed around churches, refusing to eat a "god of wheat", with the splendid humour of François Rabelais, that was inspired by them and not the reverse. Francis the first and his sister Marguerite de Navarre accompanied this popular movement with big investments in scholar studies, being totally conscious of its roots in medieval popular heresies, such as hussites, lollards, turlupins, beguins, and so on. If the etymology of huguenot as huss-genoten is really to dig further, because it makes a sense very present at the early mind of reformation, an other one describes well the huguenot mood, saying that it is from a old tower in the outskirts of Tours, named the Tower of king Hugon, where secret meetings of "spiritual songs" were held, that they were named huguenots, making a deep sense with that legendary king Hugon, the eponym of "miquelets", errant troops of the dark ages frightening the clarks, and subject of many medieval chevalry epic verses. The etymologic hypotheses are numerous, and no conclusion is to expect; the only limit we can fix is by wondering if it would have been relevant for the people that used it. It cannot sound as a reference to Hugues Capet for this reason, the huguenot spirit being far away from french dynastic nationalism. This spirit has been shared by a good half of french population in the beginning of the 16th century; its status of minority now in France, of dreamfull origins in the anglo-saxon and german world, let anyway float a fragrance of freedom dared with modest joys; just say "huguenot" and a smile come at your face, this is the true etymology of a nest of singing birds that laid many democratic and poetic eggs everywhere, this is everything you want except genetic. Gérard Vincent, a french puritan.

Gérard, I like your suggestions and have found a few references that support them; but I have closed the section with a comment to discourage speculation from ranging much farther than the two (or two and a half) hypotheses that have apparently predominated in books and articles for centuries. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 22:28, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

citation?

"The French Wars of Religion began with a massacre at Wassy on 1 March 1562, in which at least 30 (some sympathetic sources say 1000 or more) Huguenots were killed, and about 200 were wounded." These widely disparate numbers probably need some citation. Thank you. ThuranX 04:04, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that the 1000 number comes from a rounded total number of Protestants in Vassy at the time. The Catholic encyclopedia gives the low estimate of "Twenty-three"; 60 to 80 is a more common estimate, or rounded to "about 100". I've changed the sentence. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 06:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Cemetery link

There is a short article about the Huguenot cemetery in Dublin. I think it's one of only two cemeteries in Europe. Should it be linked? Everytime 02:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the Huguenot cemetery in St Stephen's Green should be linked. Natalie West 08:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

British and Irish people of Huguenot descent

There are categories for American, Canadian and South African huguenots, but none for British and Irish ones. What about famous novelists such as Daphne du Maurier, Sheridan le Fanu, Charles Maturin etc? Natalie West 01:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I initially added people like that to Category:Anglo-French people but I then removed them intending to make a sub-category like the one you suggest. What do you think would be appropriate titles- British/Irish Huguenots...British/Irish people of Huguenot descent? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 16:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I would have thought that British/Irish people of Huguenot descent would be appropriate, but some people might object to Irish people being lumped together with British. Most Irish Huguenots would also fit into the Anglo-Irish category as they became assimilated, but there has been some controversy over the use of the term as some people consider it archaic, although I suspect that hides a political agenda. (see Anglo-Irish talk page). The main Huguenot article is getting rather lenghty with lists of Huguenots and people of Huguenot descent from all around the world so I think that some sorting into sub-categories would be in order. Natalie West 08:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Samuel Beckett's family thought (perhaps wrongly) that they were off Huguenot descent. Everytime 02:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

That is just one example of a problem with having a list of Huguenot descendants- another is even when we are sure that a person is descended from Huguenots, usually because their own surname or at least that of a close forebear is known to be Huguenot in origin, is there really any meaning to that task when it is thought that the majority of Irish and English people have at least one Huguenot ancestor? There is even a problem in having a list of Huguenots as in the case of Mme. de Maintenon who I just removed from the list on this page who although brought up as a Huguenot later became a bitter enemy of them. Note someone has now created Category:British people of French descent as well as my Category:Anglo-French people just to complicate things. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 23:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Famous Huguenots or people with Huguenot ancestry

This list is getting really long, what about moving to a separate page? STTW (talk) 18:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Now the list is as long as the article, if there is no objection I will move it to a separate page soon. STTW (talk) 18:10, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Flex for doing it. STTW (talk) 18:53, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Relocation

The article states that they moved to North America but all the references were for the United States and none for Canada and Mexico. Should this then be changed to relocation to the United States? Canking 01:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Sickinger

In some of my research into 17th century Germany, I've found the term Sickinger in with the term Huguenot. Is this a notable subset, a related group, or...? ThuranX 03:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Nouvelle York in 1628

"L'Eglise francaise a la Nouvelle York" when the place was still la Nouvelle Amsterdam and the State la Nouvelle Belgique (Manhattan was bought by a French speaking protestant : Pierre Minuit). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.164.34.54 (talk) 17:46, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Rio as an place of asylum for Huguenots

Fort-Coligny was founded by Villegaignon as a place of asylum for Huguenots in the Rio region(1555-1572). (but they were also Cathlics in amongt the settlers which caused lots of dissension and the demise of the colony). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.164.34.54 (talk) 17:56, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Huguenot#Settlement_in_North_America

The beginning states that they were barred from settling New France but when Pierre Dugua, Sieur de Monts gain rights to settle new france, he was a calvinist. And so were the settlers. If you see the article, History of the Acadians the earliest settlements were in new france funding by Huguenotist merchants, like Jean de Biencourt de Poutrincourt et de Saint-Just. The first settlements went into place in 1607, then abandoned, 1610 colony destroyed. It wasn't until then, that they were barred. All this happend before 1624 and 1628.--Sparkygravity (talk) 18:04, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Initially, Huguenots were indeed permitted to settle in Canada. According to this source, they were banned from settlement in 1627. Funnyhat (talk) 18:36, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Canada

Why is there no mention of the Hunguenot settlement in Canada? I believe the Acadians were originally French protestants. This seems to be an important missing piece in the article. If somebody who has more knowledge about this topic could include some info, that would be great. Thomasiscool (talk) 02:24, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

As I noted just above, Huguenots were banned from New France in 1627, so presumably those early settlers ended up leaving. The source does note that "Huguenot merchants were still needed for trade and so received an exemption for summer visits," though. Funnyhat (talk) 18:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Some Acadians were French Protestants, but that is by no means generally true. The vast majority of them were Catholics. --Saforrest (talk) 19:46, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Olaus Laurentius

I have removed the following portion from the article:

Among the early Huguenots seeking refuge in Sweden were the parents of Olaus Laurentius, who fled from Flanders (presumably the Flemish region of France), and settled in the town of Borlange, Sweden. In 1543, their son Olaus Laurentius (Olof Larsson) was born in Borlange. Based on his birthdate, we must presume his parents left Flanders before 1543, early during the persecution of Huguenots and other Protestants in France.

(From the patronymic surnaming of Sweden, we can determine that Olaus' father's name had to be Lars (or some form of the name Laurence.) Olaus Laurentius became the Vicar of Gagnef parish, and the patriarchal ancestor of a huge family of descendants throughout Europe and the midwest USA.

Two Web sites of interest to genealogical researchers are: [1] and [2]

While this is undoubtedly some very interesting family history, I see no reason why Olaus Laurentius is any more important than hundreds of other Huguenots who have loads of descendants distributed all over the Western world.

Unless I am seriously underestimating the importance of a "vicar" in 16th-century Sweden, I would have to say that neither the above characterization nor any of the links establish the notability of Olaus Laurentius for me. --Saforrest (talk) 19:46, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Revocation of Edict of Nantes

An editor had a number of WP:POV terms in the section on revocation. One referred to the "irrevocability" of the treaty. French monarchs considered themselves chosen of God then (a problem that would be dealt with later!  :). Revoking a treaty sounds to me like something they would do before breakfast! If you really think you are "chosen by God" what would be the big deal? What we are looking for here, is a recitation of the facts. The exodus of Huguenots, tragic at the time, was a boon to many receiving countries. Just the facts. Let the reader spin them as they will. Student7 (talk) 11:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

pronunciation?

Should there be a pronunciation key next to Hugenots? Just a suggestion. Nominaladversary 23:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

thats the only reason i checked the article, anyone want to help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.79.76 (talk) 23:47, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Notables?

It seems to me that inserting people who were Huguenot emigres who had children who had later accomplishments detracts from the article. Should we establish a "Notable" subsection at the bottom where people can brag on their notable ancestors (with articles)? That would save them from being placed in the article with accomplishments (if they have articles, a precondition for notability, their accomplishments should not be listed). Also, I would ask for 50% Huguenot ancestry. Someone who has a casual ancestor who happened to be a Huguenot would not go here. Most claimants tend to fall into this latter category. Student7 (talk) 13:55, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Absorption of Huguenots who emigrated from France

From what I gather, it seems that the majority of Huguenots who emigrated from France to other European countries were eventually absorbed into the host populations, ethnically, culturally, and linguistically. Is this correct? The only survival of the French language seems to have been in church services, and this was not always the case, either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carhistorian (talk • contribs) 14:52, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

And the surnames are too in french language :p

Unskilled, land clearance

Many Huguenot went to places not associated with the silk trade, and were used to drain and clear the land near the Fens. These then remained on the land to farm. Some bought their own language and church. These settlements were near Wisbech and Spalding. Surnames include Tegerdine, of which most are still geographically still situated in these areas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.252.51 (talk) 17:56, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality of the article

Can I raise a query on the neutrality and quality otherwise of this article? Much is made of Catholic persecution of Huguenotry and of Huguenots dying for their faith, but nothing is said of the Huguenot attacks upon Catholic churches and people. In addition the threat they were felt to have posed to the unity of the country, society, to Christendom etc (Paris didn't want to be like Geneva) must be read in the context of the times for good history. The greatly disproportionate role of the French nobility (said to be motivated by the gain of Church loot as in England) in the wars of religion isn't noted here either. These are all historical facts.

Some lines of this article seem to have been taken from http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Huguenot but they are quite select ones.

203.5.64.114 (talk) 22:08, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Non of the lines were taken from references.com. References.com is just a copy of wikipedia at a specific date. Look closely to that site and you will note the following

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia © 2001-2006 Wikipedia contributors (Disclaimer)

This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License.
Last updated on Friday October 10, 2008 at 22:18:19 PDT (GMT -0700)

View this article at Wikipedia.org - Edit this article at Wikipedia.org - Donate to the Wikimedia Foundation

--NJR_ZA (talk) 06:46, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, I stand corrected. Selectivity seems to have occurred in the reverse direction then, however. The article declines to mention any of the equally important un-saintly activity carried out by Huguenotry in the years preceeding the French Wars of Religion, and I propose carries the tone of bias throughout. The neutrality of wikiproject Calvinism is by no means a given and I would like to press this dispute. 203.5.64.114 (talk) 21:42, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

As I understand it, the Huguenots nearly pulled off a coup. It was a near thing. Since they lost, there have been a lot of hands wrung over persecution, but it could have gone the other way with the Vatican loyalists fleeing (I suppose) and/or massacred. Religion was definitely a contact sport back then!  :( Student7 (talk) 20:54, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Criticisms of Roman Catholic Church

The article gives the impression that the catholic church was persecuting the huguenots and that once in a while the huguenots would fight back in self defence. i am extremely suspicious of this idea; were the huguenots trying to take over the government of france like protestants in other countrys during the protestant reformation?..... and was the catholic church attacking the Huguenots to stop this? Was it the Huguenots who were trying to take over the government and the catholic church fighting to stop them?

In the article the claim is made that the Huguenots took over several catholic cities in self defense, this sounds bogus. Usually when cities are taken over it is by an offensive player.Peppermintschnapps (talk) 22:24, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Description Of Beliefs

The sentence

They saw Christian life as something to be expressed as a life of simple faith in God, relying upon God for salvation, and not upon rituals, obeying Biblical law, and in a spirit of gratitude to God for His grace and mercy.

is ambiguous. Were they against ritual, obeying biblical law and living in a spirit of gratitude, or were they merely against rituals? If the latter the sentence would be improved by the use of semicolons, for example

They saw Christian life as something to be expressed as a life of simple faith in God; relying upon God for salvation, and not upon rituals; obeying Biblical law; and living in a spirit of gratitude to God for His grace and mercy.

193.113.37.9 (talk) 13:28, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

South Africa

A list of names is given: "Blignaut, de Klerk (Le Clercq), de Villiers, du Plessis, Du Preez (Des Pres), du Toit, Franck, Fouche, Fourie (Fleurit), Gervais, Giliomee (Guilliaume), Gous / Gouws (Gauch), Hugo, Jordaan (Jurdan), Joubert, Labuschagne (la Buscagne), le Roux, Lombard, Malan, Malherbe, Marais, Minnaar (Mesnard), Nel (Nell), Nortje (Nortier), Pienaar, Rossouw Rousseau, Taljard (Taillard), TerBlanche, Theron, Viljoen (Villon) and Visagie (Visage)"." Some of these are linked (can't tell from my list, sorry), others are not. I suggest that the names that aren't linked, be linked to a notable, "by example" with a comment to future editors. Otherwise, this is simply a vanity genealogy list. Not to pick on South Africa - if this is done elsewhere, the same applies. Student7 (talk) 14:00, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest that most of those are de-linked, except in cases like Rossouw that links to Rousseau (surname). Most of those links redirect to a totally unrelated page such as Malherbe that redirect to François de Malherbe. Credible references should also be added to confirm that those are indeed names in South Africa from Huguenot heritage. This photo will confirm that those names are from decedent from Huguenots, but it will be better to have written references as well. --NJR_ZA (talk) 14:23, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

First sentence?

Do you mean this first sentence? "By 1562, the estimated number, concentrated mainly in the southern and central parts of the country." It's not nonsensical, it needs a verb and an object.Ann.landrey (talk) 23:38, 1 November 2010 (UTC) The first sentence is nonsensical, currently. I would fix it up, but I don't know what it's trying to say. --345Kai 08:09, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Guanabara Confession of Faith

We have to choose the real and complete version and historical truth! The version of this article?!

"A fort, named Fort Coligny, was built to protect them from attack from the Portuguese troops and Brazilian natives. The settlement was an attempt to establish a French colony in South America. The fort was destroyed in 1560 by the Portuguese who captured part of the Huguenots. The Catholic Portuguese threatened the prisoners with death penalty if they did not convert to Catholicism. The Huguenots of Guanabara, as they are now known, produced a declaration of faith to express their beliefs to the Portuguese. This was their death sentence. This document, the Guanabara Confession of Faith, became the first Protestant confession of faith in the whole of the Americas."

Or the version of the Article of "Guanabara Confession of Faith"?

"The Guanabara Confession of Faith of 1558 was the first Protestant writing in Brazil, and in all of the Americas. It was written by the French Huguenots Jean du Bourdel, Matthieu Verneuil, Pierre Bourdon e André la Fon, who were taken under arrest by Villegaignon. Twelve hours after writing it, the authors were hanged."

It is necessary to rectify the errors and contradictions by reading historical true sources- and make the whole history of these people involved in Huguenot colonization and in the Portuguese conquest/reconquest of Guanabara. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.113.189.44 (talk) 15:32, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Lothar von Arnauld de la Perière

I would question his inclusion in this page, given that his ancestor fled from France to Prussia for fighting a duel, and not for religious reasons.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothar_von_Arnauld_de_la_Peri%C3%A8re — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rolgiati (talk • contribs) 12:42, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

F.H.M. Fédération Huguenote Mondiale ry

Huguenot World Federation (2009) will take part in adding and correcting information in the wikipedia article of Huguenot/Huguenots. userpage: Moddebonniot chairman--Moddebonniot (talk) 17:08, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Etymology

I'm reading a history of Geneva written in the 19th century for use in Geneva schools. This book says that Charles III, Duke of Savoy, wanted Geneva to become part of Savoy, and there was a split among the citizens as to whether this was a good idea. The faction favoring independence was in the minority, and wanted an alliance with Switzerland (Geneva of course was not part of Switzerland then) to strengthen their cause. This faction was named (derisively) the Eidguenots, from Eidgenosse. Besançon Hugues was the most important leader of these Eidguenots and eventually obtained an alliance with Fribourg and Bern.

This book only mentions French refugees in passing and doesn't call them Huguenots (it's just concerned with the politics of Geneva). This Geneva split is from the very beginning of the 16th century, before the Wikipedia article says the name was applied to French protestants.

Anyway I will note this here since it supports the main etymology given, but it doesn't really add anything except the Geneva spelling (Eidguenot), and the reference is in French, so I won't edit the main article. --Mujokan (talk) 20:30, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Pierre Robert Olivétan

The Early History and beliefs section states '...and Olivetan published a French Bible for them. A two-volume folio version of this translation appeared in Paris, in 1488.' There is a 'citation needed' afer this, and a little later the article reads 'Since Calvin lived from 1509 to 1564 and Olivetan was his nephew, it is unlikely that Olivetan's French translation of the bible (commissioned by the Waldensians) was published in Paris in 1488.' (That contradictory statement was, presumably, added by someone else).

Well, since Wikipedia itself states that Pierre Robert Olivétan lived from c1506-1538, that would make him a good three years older than Calvin. Unless there was a very large age gap between Calvin and an elder brother, it seems extremely unlikely that Olivétan was his nephew. I have read elsewhere that they may have been cousins. (I have also read that Calivn was the second of five sons, the fourth of five sons, that his father 'was a church leader holding ecclesiastical offices for the lordship of Noyon' (http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/john-calvin.html) and that his father showed no particular piety!)

If, as the article states, the Olivetian bible was written for the ‘remaining Waldensians’ who ‘sought to join William Farel, John Calvin and the Protestant Reformation,’ that makes it even more unlikely to have been published in 1488, a year that predates Calvin, the translator Olivétan, and even Farel, who was born in 1489. However, it is not difficult to establish that the Olivetian bible was in fact published in 1535.

It is difficult to understand why this obviously erroneous statement has not been edited out, but the fact that it hasn’t, along with the questionable knowledge of whoever sought to correct it (and who had Olivétan being the younger Calvin’s nephew) makes the whole article seem somewhat unreliable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Worbleswick (talk • contribs) 01:21, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

At some point a different Bible was inserted before this date, separating it from its proper referent, creating the confusion. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 01:14, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Proposal to revise entry on Huguenots and English lace industry

This relates to the first part (up to the comma) of a single sentence "Huguenots greatly contributed to the development of lace-making in Bedfordshire, with many families settling in Cranfield, Bedford and Luton." This may seem minor in relation to the overall page on the Huguenots, but it is important in relation to the history of lacemaking in England, so I feel it is worth the effort to make sure that the entry here represents the best scholarship on the subject.

As a newcomer to Wikipedia I previously attempted to revise this page, but my change was immediately reverted by editor Bleaney. I recently started the process of discussion on his Talk page, and he responded on mine. It seems better to transfer the discussion to one place, and the Huguenot Talk page would seem best. Rather than arguing for restoration of my changes, I would like to discuss the reliability of the various sources in this area so that a new entry that represents the outcome of the discussions can be agreed. Please participate in the discussion if you have knowledge in this area.

The two postings so far were:

[To User_talk: Bleaney] This is regarding the section Exodus/England on the Wikipedia page, Huguenot. My interest and area of expertise is lace, lacemaking and its history, and on 16 September 2012 I made a change to the Huguenot page, replacing the part-sentence "Huguenots greatly contributed to the development of lace-making in Bedfordshire" by "It is often asserted that the Huguenots contributed to the development of lace-making in this area, but there is no historical evidence to support this." If I understand the page history correctly, you reverted this, with the explanation, "There are references you just ignore them!." As someone new to Wikipedia editing at the time, I did not know how to respond, but I now gather that I should attempt to resolve this dispute by starting a discussion on your talk page. This I am now doing. Could you please be specific about the "references" you say that I am ignoring. I can see no numbered references associated with the sentence I replaced. Are they somewhere else on the page? If there is sound historical evidence to support this then I am clearly wrong and the page should include these references. However I think we have an obligation to discuss the validity of any references to ensure that they are not just repetition of unsupported statements from books such as "The Romance of the Lace Pillow" (Thomas Wright). --Socialambulator (talk) 20:17, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

[To User_talk: SocialAmbulator - from Bleaney] Take a look at this source - http://web.archive.org/web/20070814051551/http://www.mkheritage.co.uk/cnm/lace/lacehtml/huguenot.html

The following is a new posting from me in reply to Bleaney's link.

In my opinion the Cowper and Newton Museum web page (http://web.archive.org/web/20070814051551/http://www.mkheritage.co.uk/cnm/lace/lacehtml/huguenot.html) contains two main types of information: 1. information backed up by local sources, and 2. unattributed information from one specific source, The Romance of The Lace Pillow, by Thomas Wright.

1. Information from local sources includes pictures of early 19th Century gravestones documenting Huguenot surnames, together with a list on such surnames associated with different areas. This clearly documents the population of Huguenot origin in this area, which is not in dispute. On another page (http://web.archive.org/web/20070608133249/http://www.mkheritage.co.uk/cnm/lace/lacehtml/extent.html) there is a citation from the Northampton Militia lists of 1777 documenting the large number of young women and boys employed in lacemaking in the area at that time. The same page also has a citation from a book published in 1779 testifying to the widespread manufacture of lace in this area. These latter are good examples of reliable references, neither is controversial, and neither relates to the question of the employment or influence of the Huguenots in the lace industry in Bedfordshire.

2. Most, if not all, of the other historical statements on the Cowper and Newton web page do not cite any source, but there is good reason to believe that they are taken from "The Romance of the Lace Pillow" by Thomas Wright, published by HH Armstrong at Olney in (1919). I demonstrate this by comparing the statements on the Cowper and Newton Museum page (CN) with those in the book (RLP - 1971 reprint page numbers given).

CN: 1563: Twenty-five recent widows, makers of bone lace, settled in Dover, Kent;
RLP p.29: Among the arrivals at Dover were "twenty-five widows" makers of "bone lace and spinners"

CN: 400 settled at Sandwich, Kent;
RLP p.29: 400 settled at Sandwich

CN: Second wave of lacemakers, many from Lille, left in 1572 after The Massacre of the Feast of Saint Bartholomew. Exactly how many is not known but many hundreds came to Buckinghamshire and Northampton.
RLP Ch V The Second Exodus, p.37: ...Many of the survivors escaped to England and the lacemakers among them, who came chiefly from Lille and the neighbourhood, found their way into Buckinghamshire and Northamptonshire...

CN: From this time Bucks point lace developed: it is a combination of Mechlin patterns on Lille ground.
RLP pp37-8: ...where they joined the Mechlin workers from Flanders, who had for several years been settled there. As a natural result we find that many of the designs of these parts are a combination of the two laces, Mechlin and Lille.

CN: In 1586 Lord William Russell, son of the Duke of Bedford, owned property near Cranfield, Bedfordshire. This is about 10 miles from Olney. He had fought for William the Silent in the Low Countries and he was married to Rachel, daughter of the Huguenot Marquis de Rivigny. He invited many refugees to settle under his protection.
RLP p.34: The magnet that drew the Cranfield the Flemish Protestants of 1568...was probably the influence of the powerful Russell family... The head of the house at this time was Francis, 2nd Earl of Bedford, whose son William distinguished himself at Zutphen, 22nd September 1586... and it is worthy of note that Lord William Russell, the patriot (who was son of the 5th Earl and 1st Duke) married Rachel, daughter of the Huguenot Marquis de Rivigny.

CN: Another English gentleman, who had fought for William of Orange, was George Gascoigne: he invited other Huguenots to settle near his manor at Cardington, Bedford.
RLP p.34: Another great Bedfordshire family that was all on fire to help the Flemish Protestants was the House of Gascoigne, whose seat was Cardington Manor.

CN: Huguenot emigration continued until the Edict of Nantes in 1598.
RLP p.39: The Huguenot exodus continued until 1598 when it was arrested by the promulgation of the Edict of Nantes...

CN: However when the Edict was rescinded in 1685 by Louis XIV, there was another wave of religious refugees. About 10,000 left Burgundy and Normandy. The lace makers found their way to the by now well-established lace villages in the counties of Buckingham, Bedford and Northampton.
RLP p.63: at last on 22nd October 1685 they succeeded in inducing him [Louis XIV] to revoke the Edict of Nantes. ...tens of thousands of persons, many of whom were skilled lacemakers, flocked from Burgundy and Normandy into England, most of the lacemakers finding their way to the lace towns and villages of Bucks, Beds and Northants.

CN: Map of various migrations
RLP Plate 11 (opposite p. 49): Map showing the principal routes...

To conclude this post, I think it is clear that "The Romance of The Lace Pillow" is the source for the information on the Cowper and Newton web page. This and certain 19th century sources are, in fact, the basis of most later statements about the Huguenots and the English lace industry. If you (and any others who wish to participate in this discussion) accept this, then I would like to turn the discussion to considering these sources, their historical basis, and Wright's argument regarding Bucks Point lace, Mechlin and Lille. --Socialambulator (talk) 10:37, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

CONTINUATION
As a couple of weeks have passed without comment on the foregoing, I should like to move the discussion to the validity of the arguments in Thomas Wright's "Romance of the Lace Pillow".

Wright implies that Huguenot refugees were responsible for the development of the lace industry in the East Midlands by a combination of three separate arguments.
1. He provides historical detail of the settling of Huguenots and Flemish Protestants in the East Midlands.

2. He cites a source to the effect that "Twenty-five recent widows, makers of bone lace, settled in Dover, Kent". (The provenance of this is unclear, but it seems to be authentic.) However the reason Wright has to cite as lacemakers those twenty-five refugees who settled in Kent is because he has no evidence that any of the refugees who settled in the East Midlands were lacemakers. This is because there is no such evidence for the East Midlands or, indeed, for any other part of England. Given that there is documentation that many of the refugees to England were weavers, and that many of the refugees to Continental cities were lacemakers, this lack of evidence would appear significant. However, let us confine ourselves to saying that currently there is no historical evidence that the Huguenot refugees to the East Midlands were lacemakers.

3. The whole of Wright's argument then turns on his statement "From this time Bucks point lace developed: it is a combination of Mechlin patterns on Lille ground." In effect he is arguing that the two groups of refugees must have been responsible for the development of East Midlands lace because its style is derived from the two styles of lace of the regions from which the refugees came. Although this argument may sound plausible to the layman, it is based on the fallacy that what is now known as Mechlin lace existed at the time of the immigration from Flanders, which according to Wright was several years before 1572 (i.e late sixteenth century).

On what evidence is our knowledge of the history of lace based? Lace was primarily a fashion item, and the most extensive evidence for the development of styles of lace is from portraits, which can generally be dated accurately. Written records document the existence of lacemaking and lacemakers in particular regions at particular times, which is the basis for saying that lace was made in the East Midlands as early as 1596. However we know very little about what type of lace was made there in the seventeenth century because no descriptions have been found.

What we do know from portraits is that the lace now known as Bucks Point did not appear until the end of the eighteenth century. (It was at this time that the Lille ground was adopted by lacemakers all over Europe because it could be made more quickly than the Mechlin ground.) Santina Levey, a textile curator at the Victoria and Albert Museum, writes in her highly respected "Lace, A History" (Maney, 1990: ISBN: 0-901286-15-X) that Mechlin lace developed in the first half of the eighteenth century (pp.45 and 47), while Lille lace with its typical mesh ground first appeared towards the end of the eighteenth century (p.90).

I propose to wait another couple of weeks for any comments from other editors before continuing this discussion and proceeding to a specific proposal for modifying the entry. Socialambulator (talk) 22:36, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

PROPOSED REWORDING
There has been no response in the past month to the above, so I have formulated the following proposed rewording, to which I invite comments before I make the changes. I propose that the current section:

"Other Huguenots arriving in England settled in Bedfordshire, which was at the time the main centre of England's lace industry. Huguenots greatly contributed[citation needed] to the development of lace-making in Bedfordshire, with many families settling in Cranfield, Bedford and Luton. "

Be replaced by:

"Did the Huguenot refugees also contribute to the English lacemaking industry? Certainly some settled in Bedfordshire, one of the main centres of the lace industry at the time. Although 19th century sources have asserted that some of these refugees were lacemakers and contributed to the E.Midlands lace industry (refs), this is contentious (refs). The only reference to immigrant lacemakers in this period is of twenty-five widows who settled in Dover (ref) but there is no contemporary documention to support Huguenot lacemakers in Bedfordshire. The implication that the style of lace known as Bucks Point ground demonstrates a Huguenot influence, being a "combination of Mechlin patterns on Lille ground" (ref), is fallacious, as what is now known as Mechlin lace did not develop until first half of the eighteenth century , and it was copied widely throughout Europe (ref). "

The (refs) are those cited above. The remaining sentence of the original paragraph regarding Huguenot weavers settling in Norwich no longer belongs with this, and I propose to move it up to the preceding paragraph, where it fits better.

Socialambulator (talk) 11:26, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

CHANGES MADE
In the absence of any comments, the changes discussed above have now been made. It would be appreciated if any reservations/criticisms that editors may have are raised here before modifications are made.

One final point that I haven't addressed previously (because my views on this are subjective) is why the idea gained currency that the Huguenots influenced English lacemaking. Like Seguin and others, I think it was probably economic. French lace was regarded as of higher quality, and commanded a higher price, than English lace. Associating E.Midlands lace with the Huguenots would have been used to give it a French association (and price tag). It should be mentioned that, Harry Armstrong, the publisher of Thomas Wright's "The Romance of Lace Pillow", himself sold lace under the name of 'Mrs' H Armstrong.
Socialambulator (talk) 22:48, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Amsterdam

According to the article "Around 1700, it is estimated that nearly 25% of the Amsterdam population was Huguenot". However the Dutch language article gives a figure of 6% around the same time. Both claims lack citation.212.182.133.214 (talk) 14:56, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

That's tough. With no citations, one thing to do might be to delete both of them. However, an even better thing to do is to go find a citation that agrees with one, the other, or gives some other figure. Any ideas where this bit of info might be found? Chrisrus (talk) 05:58, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

---Massachusetts and North American Settlement--- I am confused by this comment: "Colonies such as Maryland prior to the Maryland Toleration Act and Massachusetts denied settlement except to members of certain religions" and how it relates to this topic. I understand that Maryland was a envisioned as a Catholic settlement, so I can somewhat understand pointing this out (though the settlement of the Huguenot DuPonts there makes it a little less than accurate) But the statement is completely in error regarding Massachusetts. Numerous Huguenot families settled there, to the point that Boston ranked with New york and Charleston as one of the prinicipal colonial destinations for the refugees. Examples include revolutionary Paul Revere, merchant Peter Faneuil, and politician John Bowdoin. Consideration should be given to removing this statement.Gruntldr (talk) 01:21, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Colonial Virginia

It appears there were a number of Huguenot families that settled Colonial Virginia from the 1620's-1660's, from a website on the Manakin society (http://huguenot-manakin.org/manakin/emigration.php) Worth noting in the article, ye or ne?

70.160.65.206 (talk) 05:27, 15 March 2014 (UTC)Humble Herpderp

no it will take several scholarly articles to make the notability cut here. Rjensen (talk) 08:12, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Duplicated sentences

The following sentences occur twice in the article: "The Huguenots transformed themselves into a definitive political movement thereafter. Protestant preachers rallied a considerable army and a formidable cavalry, which came under the leadership of Admiral Gaspard de Coligny. Henry of Navarre and the House of Bourbon allied themselves to the Huguenots, adding wealth and holdings to the Protestant strength, which at its height grew to sixty fortified cities, and posed a serious threat to the Catholic crown and Paris over the next three decades." Also, the section "Unverified accusations ..." etc. should simply be deleted, if it's unverified.--79.100.140.227 (talk) 19:23, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article Huguenot

To Wikipedia:

About 6 years ago I had copied some material from the Early History and Beliefs section of the Wikipedia article Huguenot. I now find that the Early History and Beliefs section has been removed. Can you tell me why?

Sincerely, Harold J. Laughlin 2602:304:CF32:A9D0:5C8E:AC0F:2BCD:5755 (talk) 14:14, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi, Harold. I'm one of the thousands of people who, like you, also edit Wikipedia.

Short answer, up front: Given the collaborative nature of Wikipedia, I honestly doubt you're going to get a specific answer to your question.

In the past six years (since 18 January 2010), this one article has been changed over 800 times by many different editors. To give you an idea of how much this article has changed over that same period, please see this comparison of today's article to how it looked on 18 January 2010. As you can see from that and this Talk page, it (like all of Wikipedia) is not a static thing.

Looking at your question more broadly, however, I'm guessing that you're unfamiliar with how Wikipedia works. If that's the case, that's not a bad thing; I simply ask you to please take a few minutes to read this Introduction to Wikipedia. After that, if you still have questions about editing Wikipedia articles, you're more than welcome to drop a note either on my talk page or on Wikipedia's Help Desk page. Cheers! ► Bgpaulus (WORDS & DEEDS) ◄ 20:46, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

POV?

There's a hint of apologia to this article. It's right on the edge of not being NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.211.131.228 (talk) 23:11, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

This article is blatantly biased in tone against the Catholic establishment and portrays Huguenots invariably as suffering martyrs in the hands of an unjust system. Overtly displays a reactionary bias from the author(s). Disappointing in comparison with Wikipedia's normally higher standards.

Bill Donahue, is that you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.96.249.124 (talk) 18:33, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Pronunciation

The beginning of the article gives the French pronunciation of Huguenot as [yɡ(ə)nõ], and links to Help:IPA for French. However, the IPA for French article has no mention of [õ] (a nasalised [o]) in French phonology. Is this vowel really nasalised in the standard French pronunciation of Huguenot? 14.201.246.185 (talk) 21:59, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Notes

Should it be noted that many Protestants did not, in fact, leave France in 1685? mcgd k 04:34, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Flight

I have added Norway to the list of countries that people escaped to, as my own family used this route to flee and eventually we ended up in England some 200 years later. :)

Refugee

I have added this word to the article as the word refugee is now a part of the English language due to it being brought here by the early French protestants seeking Refuge, they were spoken of as the 'Refugees'. French réfugié, from past participle of réfugier, to take refuge, from Old French, from refuge.

the door of king Hugon

the subject of the origin of the "huguenot" appellation among french protestants is very controversial; the presented hypotheses only reflect the clerical point of view of french reform theologian. they are consistent only if the supposition that this name is used first in 1560. This is 30 years too late, a night gathering in the outskirts of Tours, nearby the "Porte du roi Hugon", of singing huguenots, is registered with a very old fright, by a clark of the Sorbonne. The arrival of Calvin on the protestant scene is preceded by popular upheavals with composed "Chansons spirituelles", hummed at night, extemporized at the court of Marguerite de Navarrre, that all refer to a very long tradition of codes of popular resistance agains clerical order, based with relation to epic medieval cycles. the cycle of Hugon de Bordeaux mark definitly a popular militaro-political identity, the "miquelets", the name of huguenots troups in arms, constantly signaled by François Rabelais 10 years before 1560, in his hilarious pronostications of a new flood of them. Medieval clerks only feign to see in a miquelet a Mont Saint Michel pilgrim to survey narrowly of frowning individual incriminations. It's in fact since the XI century, the name of the most efficient light infantry, serving as Mercenaries of the greek basileus, and very well-off back home in the montaneous part of France, where protestantism will receive a very quick popular adhesion. This is what a clerk, catholic or protestant, constantly feign to ignore, and a very fine parallel can be made with the british "alms giver of Saint Joan", that serve the same empire since Robin Hood. Only clerks must seem abashed by this statement, they really should verify very soon. Gérard Vincent, dit Laville.

Huguenot today? and as an ethno-religious group?

As some may or may not know some French Australian refer themselves as Huguenots cultural and religious. There is also a large community in France of protestants in Cévennes who refer themselves as Huguenots due to them holding out against Louis XIV being protected by the hilly terrain. There was a war by the Camisard which resulted in peace and they effective continue as they were till today as protestants.

Requested move 22 February 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 13:04, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

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– After all, this article is about a group of people. Moreover, virtually every version of this article in other languages uses plural like "Hugenotten" on the German Wikipedia for example.Ernio48 (talk) 12:21, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Indeed, this is about a group of people. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:47, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Seems sensible to me, too. In fact a few days ago, being unfamiliar with this Article, I used the plural myself, as the search term to find it. Okan 22:08, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.