Talk:Finnish Government/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Cabinet system?

Do the ministers have to be members of the Eduskunta? For example, Alexander Stubb, the foreign minister, is an MEP but does not appear to have a seat in the Eduskunta. – Kaihsu (talk) 16:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

No, they don’t. (answering my own question) – Kaihsu (talk) 17:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Parliamentarism since president Kallio?

With the constitution of 2000, Finland adheres de jure to the principles of Parliamentarism, although de facto all presidents since Kyösti Kallio (1936–1940) have chosen to appoint cabinets supported or tolerated by parliamentary majorities.

Is this really correct? As I understand it, the constitution of 1919 required that the cabinets must enjoy the trust of the parliament, and no cabinet could remain in power without the acceptance of a parliamentary majority. Of course, the president was free to select a cabinet of his choosing until 2000, and sometimes the cabinets were so-called "minority cabinets", composed of the members of a parliamentary minority but suffered for the time being by a majority. The most important minority cabinet was named by president Svinhufvud, but Kivimäki's minority cabinet was not, by any means, the last Finnish majority cabinet. For example, Miettinen's cabinet in 1970's did not include any members with party affilition. --MPorciusCato (talk) 16:38, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Blurry government

The article claims the "distinction is often blurred between cabinet and government in the wider sense". What are the sources for this? Do Finnish government agencies really refer to the Finnish parliament as "cabinet"? That would seem to be almost flat out wrong usage of the English term.--Anders Feder (talk) 16:45, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

OR

Pretty much the whole article is OR and thus added template. Needs a major cleanup, starting from the article title to Finnish Government, the official translation. Manelolo (talk) 22:31, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Unsourced material

Removed unsourced, incoherent material from the article and inserted below. Slowly rebuilding article. Manelolo (talk) 15:09, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

"After a parliamentary election, the party in plurality has the privilege to appoint a negotiator to form a cabinet and become Prime Minister. In practice, this person is the leader of the party. Since 1972, all cabinets have been formed as coalitions of multiple parties that constitute a parliamentary majority. In an intense period following elections, the negotiator will attempt to forge a consensus between the participating parties on the issues to be faced during the tenure of the government. This is then written down in a government platform.

However, in governmental translations to English, the distinction is often blurred between cabinet and government in the wider sense. This wider sense includes the Parliament of Finland (on which the cabinet is dependent), the governmental agencies that are directed by the Cabinet, and the independent judicial branch of government. Despite of the occasional blurring by translators, the difference is significant. The Cabinet is directly responsible to the parliament and may be dismissed by a motion of no confidence. The President, according to the 2000 constitution, formally appoints the cabinet, but the daily working is the responsibility of the Prime Minister.

In 1918, after Finland's independence, the Cabinet, that in the Grand Duchy of Finland had been called the Senate of Finland, was reorganized and renamed to the Council of State. [citation needed] One of the main objectives of that reform was to separate the judiciary from the executive branch.

According to the 2000 revision of the Constitution of Finland, the power over foreign affairs is held by the President, although with a narrow definition of foreign affairs that excludes influence over preparations of decisions relating to the European Union. International treaties and the declaration of war are within the authority of the parliament.

Matters within the authority of the Cabinet are decided upon at plenary meetings, with a quorum of five ministers present, in the case of matters of wide importance and matters that are significant for reasons of principle. Less important matters are decided within the respective ministries.

Matters within the authority of the President are decided at plenary meetings of the Cabinet, with the exception of appointments, pardoning rights, and the calling of extraordinary elections.

The Chancellor of Justice is not a member of the cabinet but is required attend its every meeting.

In response to President Urho Kekkonen's vast reach over cabinets' formation processes, the 2000 constitution limited the President's power in the formation of government. Today, [when?] the President only formally appoints the government, but cannot select or remove individual members."

Requested move 2 December 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. The proposal to merge the two articles may be discussed further on the appropriate talk pages, but this cannot be easily accomplished under the WP:RM process. Nevertheless, the proposal to move this article has little support. (closed by page mover) Brad v 02:43, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Council of State (Finland) → Finnish Government – The currently-separate pages "Council of State (Finland)" and "Government of Finland" should be combined under one title, as they cover the same realm of content. There is no proof on vnk.fi that "Council of State" is an official version of the governemnt's name in English, but there are numerous mentions of "Finnish Government" and even "Government of Finland" on the page. Pessimistipasta (talk) 19:31, 2 December 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. bd2412 T 20:21, 9 December 2017 (UTC) bd2412 T 20:21, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Oppose. They don't actually cover the same realm of content — the Government of Finland is the entire structure, inclusive of Parliament and the president and the civil service, while what's described in this article is the cabinet, which is merely a part of the government rather than the entirety of it. This is an entirely normal distinction — most countries (though I can't necessarily vouch for all) have a separate article about the cabinet from the one about the national government as a whole. The existing name might not be the right one, so I'd certainly be willing to consider alternate renaming proposals — but the existing proposal isn't the right solution. Would Cabinet of Finland be an acceptable alternative? Bearcat (talk) 01:09, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, you've made good points. I could agree with your proposal. Pessimistipasta (talk) 18:30, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Comment: I'd say a cabinet is the most common English term for the supreme executive, council-type organ. Then again, in Finland, that organ is officially called the Government by the Constitution and the Finnish Government by the most primary source (valtioneuvosto.fi). Taking into account the nomination, the first oppose and WP:TITLE, maybe the best way would be to have Cabinet of Finland as the title, but then explained already in the lead and other relevant articles clearly that "The cabinet of Finland is officially organized as the Finnish Government" or something similar, with refs to valtioneuvosto.fi and the Constitution? If a consensus is found, I'd be happy to do a quick rewording all around politics articles on the name. Manelolo (talk) 13:32, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Although f.ex. similar articles on France go like this: Government of France for the supreme executive body and Politics of France for the rest of the government. Many options exist, humhum! Manelolo (talk) 19:23, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

That's viable. Maybe let's finish this vote and work towards a solution that everyone's happy with (alas, one that's at least marginally different from the current system). Pessimistipasta (talk) 13:50, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Support. After a bit more research, I would support the move. 1) France is another country where the cabinet is officially named the Government of France, Gouvernement de la République française, and the article title reflects that. The overall article for the "whole government" is titled Politics of France. 2) Government of Finland and Politics of Finland are essentially the same article currently, of which the Politics one is far better as it stands. Thus, there does not seem to be a real need for a separate article titled Government of Finland.

Thus, I feel following the official title is best here although WP:TITLE does not always advocate for it. Even in both English and Finnish commonspeak I would say government and hallitus are the far more used ones instead of cabinet and kabinetti. The official name will not most likely change rapidly as its been in the revamped Constitution for over 15 years now. The concerns of the first oppose can be addressed by dealing with the rest of the government in the Politics of Finland article (in the foreseeable future). Manelolo (talk) 10:35, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Note: relisting, as a better approach appears to be congealing here. bd2412 T 20:21, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Oppose – the Council of State is a branch or part of the government of Finland. Renaming the article Finnish Government is too ambiguous and could easily refer to the entire government of Finland. I would support Finnish Government (cabinet) or something similar. CookieMonster755 𝚨-𝛀 00:14, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
- Semantics on what is a government are wide and varying, but e.g. the Government of France is not ambiguous and does not refer to the entire mechanism of governance, as opioned above! Manelolo (talk) 13:51, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Oppose. Finnish Government rightly redirects to Government of Finland not to this article. And if a merge is agreed (I would oppose but there seems some support and this should be discussed separately) then the move is moot. Andrewa (talk) 01:31, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 31 December 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. 23 days and two relistings have given this debate a lull in participation and a consensus to rename as proposed. Happy Publishing! (closed by page mover) Paine Ellsworth ^put'r there 18:34, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Council of State (Finland) → Finnish Government – The legislative body this page covers officially calls itself the "Finnish Government". There is little basis in literature for the current name, which appears to have been freely translated from Finnish or Swedish. Hence, in all official material and most news articles, the term "Finnish Government" is used: Official website, The previous discussion yielded an opposition vote, with no changes made to the page, although many seemed to not be content with the current name. Therefore, a new discussion is required. An additional change would be the merging of Government of Finland under Politics of Finland, as per User: as the counterparts in Norway and Denmark have done. The objective of this discussion is to land at a naming solution that works for everyone, and one that has an actual, factual basis. Pessimistipasta (talk) 11:25, 31 December 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. samee ^talk 08:49, 9 January 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. ToThAc (talk) 18:32, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Support See the official website of what used to be translated as council of state as mentioned above and official national term bank valter.fi (https://mot.kielikone.fi/mot/valter/netmot.exe?ListWord=valtioneuvosto+%281%29&SearchWord=valtioneuvosto&dic=1&page=results&UI=fi80&Opt=1) : The term ‘valtioneuvosto (1)’ was previously translated as ‘Council of State’, a literal translation which is no longer recommended. And the beginning of the current version of the article is an embarrassing joke: The Finnish government directs the Government (sic) of Finland. --Espoo (talk) 01:47, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
Comment Notice that the article Government of Finland refers to what is Suomen valtio in Finnish, while this article (Council of State) is about Suomen valtioneuvosto. The English word "government" is very imprecise, it means both. Some sort of a solution should be reached to this issue, regardless of what it is. --vuo (talk) 12:49, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

That's true, however, as someone mentioned before, we could combine Politics of Finland and Government of Finland, as they are basically the same article with different features. The solution could be naming this Finnish Government, the actual name of the institution, and merging the aforementioned articles under Politics of Finland. Pessimistipasta (talk) 14:10, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Half-heartedly oppose: While it may be the official name, "Finnish Government" would not be a correct name in English, as the justice system is not included. However, I am afraid I don't have a constructive suggestion for what should be used instead, as I agree the current title does not seem to be a workable title, either. Perhaps Legislature of Finland? I agree that Politics of Finland and Government of Finland should most likely be merged, as they are currently redundant articles, however I would argue that they should be merged under the title Government of Finland, with Finnish Government as a natural redirect. If Finnish Government is the final consensus choice, it needs to have a hatnote specifying that Government of Finland is about the entire government, while "Finnish Government" specifically refers to the Finnish combined executive and legislative branches.--Aervanath (talk) 00:13, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Just to be clear on nomenclature, I don't think government has ever been used to refer to the executive and legislative at the same time? It's either the cabinet of politicians currently in charge of the country or the whole system of governing a country (incl. legislative, executive, judiciary, ministries, agencies etc.) Manelolo (talk) 16:36, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Support 1) rename Council of State to Finnish Government 2) merge content of Government of Finland to Politics of Finland 3) and redirect Government of Finland to Finnish Government 4) apply appropriate hatnotes. In essence, totally the same way the French go by since they use a similar naming system: Government of France, the official name of the executive / cabinet / council of state and Politics of France for how the whole state is governed. Manelolo (talk) 16:36, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

See also Talk:Politics of Finland#Merger proposal Manelolo (talk) 16:53, 9 January 2018 (UTC)